WotLK Healing Compendium v3.2: Same Old Thing - Page 62

tedv · 10/19/09, 9:38 AM

Body and Soul really is a superfluous raiding talent, but it's not arguably worse than any of the other options-- most alternatives provide mana efficiency instead. As long as people take the important throughput talents (which in my opinion now includes 3/3 Blessed Resilience), I don't think it much matters what else they take.

I don't use Prayer of Healing for Anub'arak 10H for the record. Generally I press one Holy Nova every 15 seconds or so and let healing stream totem handle the other group.

Last time I was specced Holy, I did a brief stint with Lightwell. I primarily used it as a personal bandage machine while soaking on Twin Valkyrs. I placed it halfway between the raid and the far color change portal, so people who got the debuff could also click it. The well rarely used all charges, but generally some other people would use 3 to 5 clicks. I guess that's not bad for one talent point.

Sun_Tzu · 10/19/09, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by tedv

I don't use Prayer of Healing for Anub'arak 10H for the record.

Do people actually do that? Seriously? What's the reason? Mental retardation? Chances are you've got one of the 3 other classes with you, their options being: Healing Stream(non resto is also powerful enough for 10man version), Downranked Reju(Can handle 10 targets), Judgement of Light(Will keep every melee class alive forever in both 10 and 25man).

So umm...why even bother with holy nova? :/

Getting back to the purpose of why I brought this up, we're not suggesting a talent spec that fits your gear and raid. We need to suggest the MOST UNIVERSALLY CORRECT spec as the primary choice. This means keeping in regen talents because regen is the first key hurdle to enable you to perform as a healer. This also means not trying to educate your raid to use Lightwell or any other situational talent. Cookie cutter, what you need to do your job, and let's not get confused here, your job isn't to heal the tank, to hot the raid or to be the supreme spothealer, there are other sections of the forum dedicated to people who want to play those classes.

tedv · 10/19/09, 10:24 AM

Our healers were a paladin and myself, a priest. We didn't set up the groups for Judgment of Light or Leader of the pack healing, so the casters in the group without a shaman got low. Arguably we should have shuffled the groups but it's not a huge deal. The healing is really light on Anub 10H when there's no penetrating cold out. And one holy nova isn't that much healing anyway. It was the right call. Note that Nova is far better than Prayer of Healing in this situation because of the smaller quantization of the heal.

Sun_Tzu · 10/19/09, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by tedv

Our healers were a paladin and myself, a priest. We didn't set up the groups for Judgment of Light or Leader of the pack healing, so the casters in the group without a shaman got low. Arguably we should have shuffled the groups but it's not a huge deal. The healing is really light on Anub 10H when there's no penetrating cold out. And one holy nova isn't that much healing anyway. It was the right call. Note that Nova is far better than Prayer of Healing in this situation because of the smaller quantization of the heal.

I'd go with downranked coh myself, but then I'd also make sure the groups were set up correctly beforehand. Rank1 PoH might be ok too, but it's hardly efficient and you won't be able to keep it up long enough.

Carnathagia · 10/19/09, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu

We need to suggest the MOST UNIVERSALLY CORRECT spec as the primary choice. This means keeping in regen talents because regen is the first key hurdle to enable you to perform as a healer.

This is the 3.2 Healing Compendium. I believe it is assumed that you are going to be progressing in 3.2 content and be appropriately geared, meaning that the talent choices should reflect current theorycrafting and optimization at this point in game progression. Currently, throughput talents are preferred, sometimes at the expense of 'Cookie cutter, what you need to do your job' talents. I disagree with listing a regressed talent build to support someone in lower tiers of content. There are other forums dedicated to beginner players.

edit: I agree the compendium's talent spec should be updated to reflect current raid content.

tedv · 10/19/09, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu

I'd go with downranked coh myself, but then I'd also make sure the groups were set up correctly beforehand. Rank1 PoH might be ok too, but it's hardly efficient and you won't be able to keep it up long enough.

CoH isn't group restricted though, so it will probably heal some people from both groups and ignore others. Plus as I was specced Discipline, I didn't have access to Circle of Healing anyway. I'm sure Rank 1 Prayer of Healing would have been fine, but holy nova was less mana and instant cast. And again, it's just one GCD every 15 seconds or so. It's not a big deal. There's more than one way to solve the problem.

StormyParis · 10/19/09, 12:07 PM

I tend to agree that the ElitistJerks audience is mostly cutting-edge players on cutting-edge content, not casuals. Maybe we could at least have 3 builds, Naxx, Uldu, and Coliseum level ? Or very a specialized build for 25-mans, and a more general one for 10-mans, with pointers on the best throughput-regen tradeoff ?

Starfire · 10/19/09, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by meddle

If the above posts are true (namely Starfire's), then why are we still speccing into Serendipity?

I feel like I can drop Serendipity now for gratuitous Body and Soul, and that it is where we should be taking these points from first, if from anywhere.

Serendipity is good for burst healing though. And let's be honest, burst healing is the one thing Priest's can do. Just to be clear, I am not saying don't use PoH; I am saying the value of Healing Prayers depends directly on the number of PoH's you cast (and PoM). If you aren't casting many PoH's, then Healing Prayers isn't super valuable.

I think Serendipity is amazing for healing Incinerate and very good for dealing with the type of damage frequent in Twins.

Even without Empowered Healing, a Serendipity-hastedGreater Heal should be our highest throughput spell; so it retains value for Incinerate or healing the focus-target on Faction Champions. (Although, iirc due to the mechanics of Incinerate, this isn't reflected to well in logs).

Hegen · 10/19/09, 12:29 PM

The problem with providing cookie cutter builds for lower progression tiers is that there are no real raids of such a progression tier. An entry level Naxx raid today has typically nothing to do at all with what it was when we all entered it in leveling blues.

Widely varying gear levels aside, almost all Naxx raids and many Ulduar raids are pugged now, with little regard for raid composition. How should anyone provide a universally good build if we no longer know what the baseline is - in terms of equipment and raid composition?

Basically, there's no real advice other than to look at where the hurt is: single target throughput? multitarget throughput? regen? In my opinion, the healing compendium should just enable the readers to make educated decisions based on their personal needs. This is what it already does nicely.

Lambi · 10/19/09, 12:39 PM

If this thread is only for cutting edge priests, you don't need help with your spec so I really don't think a noob friendly spec is bad to show on the front page. Specs will change with gear, setup and playstyle. I'm actually thinking of going out of spell warding again, since I never die where it matters anyway.

Sun_Tzu · 10/19/09, 1:47 PM

Originally Posted by Carnathagia

This is the 3.2 Healing Compendium. I believe it is assumed that you are going to be progressing in 3.2 content and be appropriately geared, meaning that the talent choices should reflect current theorycrafting and optimization at this point in game progression. Currently, throughput talents are preferred, sometimes at the expense of 'Cookie cutter, what you need to do your job' talents. I disagree with listing a regressed talent build to support someone in lower tiers of content. There are other forums dedicated to beginner players.

edit: I agree the compendium's talent spec should be updated to reflect current raid content.

The problem with this argument is that the preferred spec hasn't been updated since the release of 3.1. It was completely wrong for that tier of content, through-out the whole time we were on that tier of content. It's also wrong for this tier of content. You're making a assumption as to the purpose of the build based on your own preferences, but I see no consensus here as to what the spec is supposed to be. Perhaps that's infact the first discussion we should be having.

tedv · 10/19/09, 2:23 PM

Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu

The problem with this argument is that the preferred spec hasn't been updated since the release of 3.1. It was completely wrong for that tier of content, through-out the whole time we were on that tier of content. It's also wrong for this tier of content. You're making a assumption as to the purpose of the build based on your own preferences, but I see no consensus here as to what the spec is supposed to be. Perhaps that's infact the first discussion we should be having.

Here are some of the basic conclusions we've come to:

Throughput is king, especially on AoE heals
Take just enough mana regeneration that you don't run out
Don't spec for Greater Heal
Don't plan on chain casting Flash Heals
Renew is good if you spec for it

With that in mind, here's what I consider the bare bones of any holy spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I can understand the argument for this spec, if you can live without Serendipity: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

And this is the spec I personally would raid with: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Sun_Tzu · 10/19/09, 2:53 PM

Originally Posted by tedv

Here are some of the basic conclusions we've come to:

Throughput is king, especially on AoE heals
Take just enough mana regeneration that you don't run out
Don't spec for Greater Heal
Don't plan on chain casting Flash Heals
Renew is good if you spec for it

With that in mind, here's what I consider the bare bones of any holy spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I can understand the argument for this spec, if you can live without Serendipity: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

And this is the spec I personally would raid with: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I can live with the first spec you posted, although I'd go to 3/3 Serendipity and add desperate prayer as neither in my opinion are really situational talents. Even if you argue that you cast few PoH, the reason you are in the raid is because when the shit hits the fan you're the best person to deal with it, and the reason for that is all around CoH and serendipity stacked PoH.

As for desperate prayer, anything that helps you stay alive is essential for progression raiding at any level.

tedv · 10/19/09, 3:01 PM

Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu

I can live with the first spec you posted, although I'd go to 3/3 Serendipity and add desperate prayer as neither in my opinion are really situational talents. Even if you argue that you cast few PoH, the reason you are in the raid is because when the shit hits the fan you're the best person to deal with it, and the reason for that is all around CoH and serendipity stacked PoH.

As for desperate prayer, anything that helps you stay alive is essential for progression raiding at any level.

My biggest problem with Desperate Prayer is that it requires a GCD and doesn't have very impressive healing per second. The 2 minute cooldown isn't so hot either. If I'm in a real "Oh Shit!" moment, my first reflex is to guardian spirit myself and do one of Renew, Circle of Healing, SoL Flash Heal, or occasionally Binding Heal or Holy Nova. Of course that's a typical reflex when someone who isn't me needs healing as well. I certainly understand why people would take Desperate Prayer. I just never found that spending a talent for the sixth panic button was worth it. I don't think I'd even take it if the spell had a 5 second cooldown. (Though I would if it could target anyone.)

Summary: Not mandatory but occasionally helpful. Compare with Body and Soul and Lightwell.

Sun_Tzu · 10/19/09, 3:15 PM

Originally Posted by tedv

My biggest problem with Desperate Prayer is that it requires a GCD and doesn't have very impressive healing per second. The 2 minute cooldown isn't so hot either. If I'm in a real "Oh Shit!" moment, my first reflex is to guardian spirit myself and do one of Renew, Circle of Healing, SoL Flash Heal, or occasionally Binding Heal or Holy Nova. Of course that's a typical reflex when someone who isn't me needs healing as well. I certainly understand why people would take Desperate Prayer. I just never found that spending a talent for the sixth panic button was worth it. I don't think I'd even take it if the spell had a 5 second cooldown. (Though I would if it could target anyone.)

Summary: Not mandatory but occasionally helpful. Compare with Body and Soul and Lightwell.

Yeah I can see the reasoning, and whilst I wouldn't waste GS on myself in such a situation I could see the argument for SoL Flash or a shield, but then I can't be sure I'll have either available to me when I need it, and I don't want to die because I didn't put 1 talent point into this thing. It's something you need to mentally train yourself to use, but if you do you'll see that it does have its uses, far less dependent on encounter design than B&S.