Elitist Jerks WotLK Healing Compendium v3.2: Same Old Thing

04/29/09, 7:35 AM   #121
Promethia
Piston Honda

Blood Elf Priest

Kilrogg
 Originally Posted by tedv This is another version of "stat A has a small effect so it's meaningless while stat B has a small effect, but it's meaningful". This isn't math; it's opinion... I don't buy the argument that "you should just balance all of them" either. It's clear that there are feedback loops, but it's unlikely that your particular stat balance happens to be at that exact optimum. Remember that if you plot your the five stats holy priests care about, your current gear setup is represented by a point in a five-dimensional space. The set of points where all stats are perfectly balanced form a one dimensional line embedded in this space. The odds are very, very low that your current gear set lies on that line.
Ideally, you'd like to minimize your distance from the optimum balance, even if you cannot attain that balance. Minimizing each stat in turn as you suggest might tell you which stats are worst to be short on, but I'm not sure what one could then do with that information.

However, it is possible to figure out the effects of an various stats on a particular metric, such as throughput. For instance, the throughput of a particular (crit-able and haste-able) heal is a function of spell power, crit, and haste:

$HPS_{raw} = k' \cdot (BaseHeal + k_{sp} \cdot SpellPower)(1 + k_{c}\cdot Crit\%)(1 + Haste\%)$

which is a continuous, differentiable function of spell power, crit, and haste (assuming all three >=0). At this point it pays to know a little vector calculus, since the value of adding each stat to your raw HPS is determined by the partial derivatives of the above function with respect to spell power, crit rating, and haste rating:

$SpellPower_{weight}= k_{sp} \cdot (1 + k_{c}\cdot Crit\%)(1 + Haste\%)$

$CritRating_{weight}= \frac{k_{c}}{4591} \cdot (BaseHeal + k_{sp} \cdot SpellPower)(1 + Haste\%)$

$HasteRating_{weight}= \frac{1}{3279} \cdot (BaseHeal + k_{sp} \cdot SpellPower)(1 + k_{c}\cdot Crit\%)$

For instance, with flash heal, the spell power coefficient is ~0.8057, so if we assume a crit multiplier of 0.5 and suppose we have 2500 spell power, 25% crit, and 15% haste, then we'd have:

$SpellPower_{weight}= (0.8057) \cdot (1 + 0.5\cdot (0.25))(1 + 0.15) ~= 1.042$

$CritRating_{weight}= \frac{0.5}{4591} \cdot (2040 + 0.8057 \cdot 2500)(1 + 0.15) ~= 0.508$

$HasteRating_{weight}= \frac{1}{3279} \cdot (2040 + 0.8057 \cdot 2500)(1 + 0.5\cdot (0.25)) ~= 1.391$

Note that the weights are relative (i.e. not normalized), and this is only a measure of how much each stat affects your throughput for flash heal. Still, one could compare the throughput-only value of an item by multiplying each stat on the item by these kind of weights.

That is not quite the same as figuring out an optimum throughput balance for each stat, but the weights should always point you in the right direction.

Incidentally, several months ago I posted some formulas (near the end of this post) for the optimum int and spirit balance to maximize your mp5 with a given combined int and spirit. Those formulas would need to be adjusted slightly for 3.1 rules, but otherwise they should still be valid.

04/29/09, 12:59 PM   #122
constantius
Soda Popinski

Pandaren Priest

Windrunner
 Originally Posted by tsigo This is the best in slot list I came up with. It only uses gear available before killing Algalon. Assumes you always want 4pc.
My main objections to the items you chose (which are certainly viable options) is that your overall set is a little low on haste, instead emphasizing crit (I always try to balance them), and you've picked the dps wand. Yes, it's BiS for us, but honestly, you're competing with up to 9-10 other people for that wand. Meanwhile, [Scepter of Creation] is basically "free" for healing priests; it's a definite second-grade option for dps, and if they are using [Gemmed Wand of the Nerubians], arguably not an upgrade at all.

I'd also tend to stick to a spirit+crit cloak until we're able to get the spirit+haste quest reward from the Algalon chain.

Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein

04/29/09, 1:31 PM   #123
Jazzer
Von Kaiser

Human Hunter

Elune
 Originally Posted by tsigo This is the best in slot list I came up with. It only uses gear available before killing Algalon. Assumes you always want 4pc. [...]
Mine is very similar to that, though I didn't value 4 piece enough to pick 4 pieces of T8.

My differences were:
[Scepter of Creation] instead of [Scepter of Lost Souls]
Crown of Luminescence instead of [Conqueror's Cowl of Sanctification]
Amice of Inconceivable Horror instead of [Conqueror's Shoulderpads of Sanctification]
Signet of Soft Lament instead of [Signet of Manifested Pain]

I'd also use Val'anyr + [Ironmender] as I'm the one picking up the fragments.

My gemming configuration is [Runed Scarlet Ruby][Potent Monarch Topaz][Runed Dragon's Eye][Purified Twilight Opal] socketing my Dragon's Eyes in blue sockets.

Using Rawr, this puts me at (raid-buffed using frost wyrm flask and a fish feast):
3530 Spellpower
540 mp5 in casting
29.81% Healing crit
21.23% Haste

I chose every piece to have spirit on it with the exception of Val'anyr and the Cloak (which has mp5 instead). This puts me quite a bit higher in terms of regen than I'm currently at in my holy spec/gear.

I know stacking spellpower isn't the most popular thing to do, but I am thinking the increase in regen from the base gear alone will be enough to alleviate many of the mana problems I may face. If that isn't the case, I can always gem my holy gear differently or use regen consumables. I could use a little bit more haste probably, and maybe a little bit more crit, but in the end, if I want to change these things, I would re-gem accordingly.

I am having a hard time settling on this configuration though. Gearing for holy is a bit more complex than Disc, which is what I've done this entire expansion. As Disc, I pick the crit/haste pieces and end up with like 40% crit, >25% haste, and 3k spellpower. Since Disc can heal forever on a single mana bar, I don't need to balance spirit.

Every wipe is a learn.

 04/29/09, 6:46 PM #124 Vihermaali Piston Honda     Hollowblood Troll Death Knight   Magtheridon (EU) Talking about glyphs, I decided to give a shot at making the best out of Glyph of Prayer of Healing. During the raid I intentionally tried to avoid casting PoH on same group 2 times in row. I succeeded doing this on every fight (in log) except Mimiron, where assigment prevented me from doing that. So, over the whole raid, Glyph of PoH healed total of 455,007hp. Prayer of Healing had efficient healing of 3,289,585. That makes Glyph of PoH 13,8% of what PoH healed. Of total healing done (18,849,944), Glyph of PoH did 2,4%. In my books, this makes Glyph of PoH a serious choise for anyone looking for increase in AoE healing. About BiS Ulduar item discussion: I believe you should add a 2nd list, where there is no hardmode gear included. I think some of those hardmodes will be up for quite some time, and in meantime people should know what "lesser gear" they should get while gearing up for hardmode encounters.
04/29/09, 7:58 PM   #125
seidinove
Glass Joe

Cenarion Circle
 Originally Posted by Feebis Just noticed this in a blue post. Source My divine hymn is now ticking for about 4.5k unbuffed. It was around 9k pre nerf. The changes are understandable. Divine hymn is still very nice for sticky situations, but I'm not sure it will be the raid saver it once was.
Well, we can look back and dream about our one brief, shining moment in the sun.

Seid

04/29/09, 8:18 PM   #126
spathos
Glass Joe

Night Elf Priest

Bloodhoof
Min/Max priest sets.

 Originally Posted by tedv We need to stop considering stat variations on the order of 1 or 10 stat points and start analyzing numbers in the +100 to +300 range. For each of Spirit, Crit, and Haste, it's possible to build a set that totally ignores or focuses on those particular stats, with a total stat swing in the 300+ range. The set of points where all stats are perfectly balanced form a one dimensional line embedded in this space. The odds are very, very low that your current gear set lies on that line.
The problem with that theory is that the gear choices available don't allow for an infinite space. If you choose to max one stat even at the expense of all others, you're still going to have a decent amount of most of the other stats simply because the stats are all fairly evenly distributed on the gear. This is doubly true when you consider the fact that the best way to min/max any single stat is to pick gear with sockets over any other piece of gear.

Going from that helpful spreadsheet from TheMutt, I tried to pick out two ilvl 226 sets that maxed spellpower in the first case, and spirit in the second (Hopefully there won't be any embarrassing arithmetic mistakes):

Spellpower Set:

head: tier 8.25 holy w/runed (+9 sp socket bonus)
neck: watchful eye w/runed
shoulder: tier 8.25 holy w/runed
chest: tier 8.25 holy w/runed x 2
wrist: unsullied cuffs w/runed
hands: tier 8.25 holy w/runed
waist: cord of the white dawn w/runed x 2
legs: leggings of profound darkness w/runed x 2
feet: savior's slippers w/runed x 2
back: pennant cloak w/runed
rings: glowing ring of reclamation, pyrelight circle

meta socket = ember skyflare + 25 sp and 2% int
13 x runed scarlet ruby = 19 * 13 = 247 sp

Totals from Listed Gear:
stamina: 787; intellect: 719 (705 * 1.02 meta); spirit: 553; crit 318; haste 263; spellpower: 1345 for disc/untalented (1073 w/out gems); or 1490 for holy.

Spirit Set:

head: cowl of dark whispers w/sparkling (+9 sp socket bonus)
neck: watchful eye w/sparkling
shoulder: mantle of the unknowing w/sparkling
chest: tier 8.25 holy w/sparkling x 2
wrist: unsullied cuffs w/sparkling
hands: tier 8.25 holy w/sparkling
waist: cord of the white dawn w/sparkling x 2
legs: leggings of lost love w/Luminous Monarch Topaz x 1 (for meta), sparkling x 1, +6 spirit socket
feet: savior's slippers w/sparkling x 2
back: shawl of haunted memories
rings: glowing ring of reclamation, pyrelight circle

meta (insightful earthsiege 1r,1y,1b) + 21 int
12 x blue sockets = 16 * 12 = 192 spirit
1 x luminous monarch = 9 sp, 8 int

Totals from Listed Gear:
Stamina: 809; Intellect 715; Spirit: 844 (652 w/out gems); crit: 323; haste 236; Spellpower: 1075 for disc or 1296 for holy.

So while you can pick up an extra 275-300 in any one stat, mostly by picking the same gear and using different gems in the sockets, you will probably never have less than certain minimum amounts of the other pieces. You probably can't pick a gear set that has less than 715 int or 1070 bonus spellpower because it doesn't exist. So what we're left with is arguing whether 1490 extra spell power with 553 spirit is better than gear with 1296 spellpower with 844 spirit.

04/30/09, 1:36 AM   #127
constantius
Soda Popinski

Pandaren Priest

Windrunner
 Originally Posted by Vihermaali About BiS Ulduar item discussion: I believe you should add a 2nd list, where there is no hardmode gear included. I think some of those hardmodes will be up for quite some time, and in meantime people should know what "lesser gear" they should get while gearing up for hardmode encounters.
Added one. I assumed at least access to full Ulduar.25 drops, and 1 hard-mode 10-man drop (Thorim). Since Thorim is very manageable on hard mode, I didn't think this was too far to go.

Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein

 04/30/09, 12:45 PM #128 Tereasa Glass Joe   Tereasaa Worgen Priest   Korgath Metagem Consideration I am looking at the metagems and I see a good list of them. I am just wondering why Beaming Earthsiege Diamond doesn't make the list? I would think if the threat reduction one makes the list this one should? How does it compare with the Insightful Earthsiege Diamond exactly? I wasn't aware that the insightful gave 600 mana until now, so I'm thinking it is probably still better than the Beaming. I'm not very good with math. However; I still feel the Beaming is worthy of some sort of mention.
 04/30/09, 12:52 PM #129 constantius Soda Popinski   Nidaba Pandaren Priest   Windrunner You're basically trading 21 crit for a 600 mana proc (~ 50 Mp5). Not a great trade-off under any circumstance except the "I never need mana" one. Note that 2% of your mana pool is *roughly* 21 intellect worth of mana, +/- a fudge factor. Close enough for government work, anyway. Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
 04/30/09, 1:13 PM #130 Eshen Glass Joe   Eshen Dwarf Priest   Mug'thol With the recent Change to Lightweave Cloak Enchant, 250 Spellpower Proc on a 45 second Internal Cooldown. I have am thinking that point for point it may be a better enchant then the Darkglow 300 mana proc on 45 second internal cooldown. Have any other priest/tailors thought about this?
 04/30/09, 2:08 PM #131 Esh Glass Joe   Eshington Troll Priest   Arthas I actually wanted to bring up the glyph discussion again. I'm currently using Guardian spirit, flash heal, and CoH glyphs, but was using the PoH glyph pre-3.1. Now that I obtained 2 piece T8, I was thinking about how useful the PoH glyph would be. The problem is, I just don't know which one to drop. I still fh a decent amount, and use CoH when necessary, and I can't justify losing the GS glyph since it is such a great tool for pulls and other "Oh Sh*t" moments. What glyphs have you guys been using and why?
 04/30/09, 2:45 PM #132 BulgarBG Glass Joe   Bulgartus Undead Priest   Lightbringer First two weeks of Uld I was using GS, PoH and CoH. however looking over the parses PoH-Glyph healing didn't provide enough to justify a glyph slot, so I switched to FH. I end up dropping GH talents, so now I use FH more often and the glyph thus saving me more mana.  Reports on raids with PoH glyph and no PoH glyph (FH and no GH talents) PoH Glyph: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis FH Glyph : World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis Last edited by BulgarBG : 04/30/09 at 2:50 PM.
04/30/09, 3:07 PM   #133
Esh
Glass Joe

Troll Priest

Arthas
 Originally Posted by BulgarBG First two weeks of Uld I was using GS, PoH and CoH. however looking over the parses PoH-Glyph healing didn't provide enough to justify a glyph slot, so I switched to FH. I end up dropping GH talents, so now I use FH more often and the glyph thus saving me more mana.  Reports on raids with PoH glyph and no PoH glyph (FH and no GH talents) PoH Glyph: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis FH Glyph : World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
Interesting logs, I'll take a better look at them when I'm home tonight.

I also recently dropped some holy talents to go deeper into discipline and pick up Mental Agility.

I'll let you know how that ends up.

 04/30/09, 3:30 PM #134 Breklin Von Kaiser     Kafferty Worgen Priest   Lightbringer I recently switched from full tiem Disc pre-3.1 to 80% Holy, 20% Disc with 3.1 and the launch of Dual Spec. Definitely loving it so far and this is really just to say that my experience as Holy is not incredibly extensive. I started with the FH, CoH and PoH glyphs but the only fight that I got decent numbers from the PoH Glyph was one Ignis, at 7-8% of my total healing. Almost every other fight was at 2-3%. This week I made the switch to the GS glyph instead of PoH and find it much more useful - I am using GS much more than I did in the past. The strongest thing about the Glyph is it allows our Paladins to feel better about using Plea because they have both the anti-death protection and also only a 30% healing reduction instead of 50% (0.5*1.4=0.7 - if my math is correct). I would highly recommend the FH, GS and CoH glyphs...the PoH glyph just doesn't offer as much utility as the GS one in the end.
04/30/09, 3:43 PM   #135
Richelieu
Von Kaiser

Area 52
 Originally Posted by BulgarBG I end up dropping GH talents, so now I use FH more often and the glyph thus saving me more mana.
I did the same a couple weeks ago after looking at a WWS log from Razorscale thru Auriya and seeing I'd cast GH as Holy a grand total of 6 times, with a traditional Holy spec that spends 8-13 points primarily supporting that one spell. I'll never go back, my output while Holy has gone up 5-7% just by dropping the GH-oriented talents. The reality now is that in any fight where I'm assigned a role where a Holy priest would want to regularly use GH, I just hit the dual spec button and become Disc.

 Elitist Jerks WotLK Healing Compendium v3.2: Same Old Thing