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Old 08/06/09, 9:15 PM   #601
Sinndir
Great Tiger
 
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Night Elf Priest
 
Medivh
Originally Posted by Forgivén View Post
Hey guys ;

My topic is about Haste as a holy.

and the question is did you specified any haste rating or point like cap? now i have around 500 haste the thing is can upgrade it to 650 with my other haste items but realized that is not a big deal its effecting like 0.1 - 0.15 sec with 150 haste.. now what do you think as a holy priest do you have a cap in your mind
The only actual cap where haste becomes less effective is when you can get your GCD down to 1.0 seconds. This requires a lot of haste (1600+) and is not really a value you should attempt to attain. However, you may as well get as much as you can. Point for point it is the most throughput of any other stat plus reaching a target 0.01 seconds faster is far more valuable than landing it for an extra 500 hp.

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Old 08/07/09, 2:39 AM   #602
 Slackie
Bald Bull
 
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Blood Elf Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
I agree that haste is the obvious way to maximize throughput, but I am highly suspect of your statement:

Originally Posted by Sinndir View Post
... plus reaching a target 0.01 seconds faster is far more valuable than landing it for an extra 500 hp.
This smells fishy. Convince me that it's true.

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Old 08/07/09, 4:53 AM   #603
Aristodemos
Glass Joe
 
Orc Warrior
 
Arthas
Long time reader, first time poster:

I believe what he means is that more haste = faster casting of the specific spell (ie. Penance) and therefore quicker casting of the next spell (ie. Gheal). You get more heals off for a total greater healing effect, vs getting only one heal off, at a slightly higher heal value, but in the middle of casting the second in the same amount of time.

I may be wrong though, only been on my priest as my main now for about 6 months.

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Old 08/07/09, 5:10 AM   #604
Zju
Glass Joe
 
Undead Priest
 
Karazhan (EU)
What he means is that in Ulduar's HMs, landing the heal faster is far more important than a slower but potentially higher heal. And I couldn't agree more.

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Old 08/07/09, 7:40 AM   #605
Thalis
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Priest
 
Burning Blade (EU)
Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
Looking through your parse it appears to me that your lineup isn't that good - two enhancement shamans for example is overkill. More Hunters or Rogues would be good. A Shadowpriest would help a whole lot as well (maybe let one of your Holypriests play Shadow?) and would leave other classes to spec properly instead of speccing into Replenishment (Hunters, Warlocks).

The individual performance of some of your players needs to improve as well. Your Mages for example have full support with a Moonkin and an Elemental Shaman and their gear didn't look too bad either - ~4,5k DPS is pretty terrible for that. Also, what is Klaceek doing exactly? Tanking the first add or so? You only need two tanks for the whole fight: one for Molgeim, one for Steelbreaker. Just heal through Brundir's nukes while killing Molgeim first...

Healing-wise... getting outhealed by Judgement of Light on this fight isn't too bad (especially as a tank-healer) but the fact that just one of your raid-healers is actually surpassing it is pretty bad.
We have 2 enhancement shamans because we haven't any other rogue or hunter who can deal comparable damage. Our raid leader thinks that moving points from replenish to something else doesn't provide good benefit.
One of our mages said that because he is Arcane, he must either request Innervate in P3, or save mana in any other way and for first two bosses deal lower dps, or use wand.
"Tank" on Brundir is used for interrupts and because we don't want Brundir to do whatever he wants.
As for healing, raid leader's opinion is "I don't care how much healing you do, as long as people don't die."

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Old 08/07/09, 7:41 AM   #606
minip
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Priest
 
Aszune (EU)
Originally Posted by Zju View Post
What he means is that in Ulduar's HMs, landing the heal faster is far more important than a slower but potentially higher heal. And I couldn't agree more.
that's indd the most important thing for Ulduar HM's.. i got 234 haste, 26.85% crit and 2664sp(with inner+illusion trinket) selfbuffed atm and noticed that i could use alot more haste.. for exampel on mimiron HM that where still working on i had a couple of times my heals for a Napalm Shell target came a minimum sec to late..

this might also be the result of not having cleared enough who was specificly healing what but still i feel like more haste could save alot of deads or close call situations.. time to farm some badges and get me that new gear from the vendor that is just insane good.. thinking of the shoulders, head, ring and trinket..

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Old 08/07/09, 9:26 PM   #607
Forgivén
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Frostmane (EU)
Originally Posted by Aristodemos View Post
Long time reader, first time poster:

I believe what he means is that more haste = faster casting of the specific spell (ie. Penance) and therefore quicker casting of the next spell (ie. Gheal). You get more heals off for a total greater healing effect, vs getting only one heal off, at a slightly higher heal value, but in the middle of casting the second in the same amount of time.

I may be wrong though, only been on my priest as my main now for about 6 months.

yea but we are talking about the efficency.. when you getting more and more haste that means you are giving up more and more crit or spirit or the other stuff.. there should be a limit to balance all..

Last edited by Forgivén : 08/08/09 at 5:40 AM.

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Old 08/10/09, 2:33 PM   #608
Sinndir
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Medivh
Originally Posted by Slackie View Post
I agree that haste is the obvious way to maximize throughput, but I am highly suspect of your statement:



This smells fishy. Convince me that it's true.
Convince you? Go and search my other posts I've done the math on it before.

Plus no amount of healing you can get will help your heal reach someone 0.1 seconds faster.

Originally Posted by Zju View Post
What he means is that in Ulduar's HMs, landing the heal faster is far more important than a slower but potentially higher heal. And I couldn't agree more.
Exactly, the penance/greater heal comment is not what I meant.

Originally Posted by Forgivén View Post
yea but we are talking about the efficency.. when you getting more and more haste that means you are giving up more and more crit or spirit or the other stuff.. there should be a limit to balance all..
No not really. I run around raids with over 600 haste, combined with 5% haste from the totem of wrath and you are looking at a lot of haste (~30%). I never had mana problems in the gear I had. As long as you aren't wasting heals and managing your cooldowns mana really shouldn't be an issue.

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Old 08/10/09, 2:56 PM   #609
tedv
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Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Sinndir View Post
Convince you? Go and search my other posts I've done the math on it before.

Plus no amount of healing you can get will help your heal reach someone 0.1 seconds faster.
This is an argument to granularity, and there are no fights in the game where players are intended to take 100% of their health or more in less than an unhasted global cooldown but more than a hasted cooldown. I'm not saying that haste is bad-- it's a good stat, or at least good enough. But it's not reasonable to suggest that only a smoother granularity of healing matters. In fact, it's very rare that granularity is the constraining factor. On Algalon today and even on Patchwerk at level 60, total healing per second was the defining statistic, not how fast you could dish out heals.

If haste matters, it is because it increases your total healing per second in a sustained casting situation. It's not because it gives you 100 milliseconds of margin in your reaction time to a random spike of incoming damage.

And if I remember the math correctly, it showed that in general, haste is very slightly more HPS than an equivalent amount of spell power, but with no increase on mana efficiency. However, I'll also suggest that if your healers aren't strapped for mana, then you're bringing too many healers. Theoretically you want to bring just enough healers that no one dies and they all end the fight with almost no mana left. This lets you stack more DPS in the raid which in turn means faster kills and less time for people to make mistakes.

So I can't say this is categorically true, but I strongly suspect that if all your healers are stacking haste for a fight and still aren't having mana concerns, you could get the same total healing output with fewer healers in the raid. So stacking haste still isn't optimal.

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Old 08/10/09, 3:04 PM   #610
Dtekkar
Glass Joe
 
Human Priest
 
Crushridge
Haste vs. Crit

Haste vs. crit plays by a lot of the same rules as flash heal vs. gheal debates. Haste is incredibly valuable because it decreases the granularity of your heals. You don't even have to keep up to the damage; another healer will see the tank dropping and assist. Crit has the advantage of giving you more total healing per mana bar, and more healing per cooldown (15% hasted circle of healing's cooldown is still 6 seconds, penance 8).

Haste is more likely to save the tank from a few unlucky avoidance strings since you have control over whether you chain cast and you don't have control over whether you crit. Over the long run, if the tank lives, crit is the mana-saver. You will get your first 6k into the tank (or any spot heal target for that matter) X seconds (.1 sec in my case with my 2 gear sets) before a crit build would.

It really comes down to whether you are running OOM in the fight. If you are not at risk of running OOM in any given progression fight haste is hugely more valuable than crit because OOMing is the most major downside to haste. If you are consistently running out of mana then swap out some haste and load up with crit to get more HPM and HC/SoL procs (which further improve HPM).

Personally I try to to be the hero too much when I get excited/strained, and I pre-heal and pre-hot and pre-shield my mana bar away. I've swapped over from playing a paladin, who until 3.2 had no mana concerns whatsoever. Old habits die hard. Although I'm getting better about canceling obvious overheals and knowing when to go into mana conservation mode and only react to real deficits as opposed to predicted/possible ones.

Last edited by Dtekkar : 08/10/09 at 3:10 PM.

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Old 08/10/09, 6:02 PM   #611
Sinndir
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Medivh
Originally Posted by tedv View Post
This is an argument to granularity, and there are no fights in the game where players are intended to take 100% of their health or more in less than an unhasted global cooldown but more than a hasted cooldown. I'm not saying that haste is bad-- it's a good stat, or at least good enough. But it's not reasonable to suggest that only a smoother granularity of healing matters. In fact, it's very rare that granularity is the constraining factor. On Algalon today and even on Patchwerk at level 60, total healing per second was the defining statistic, not how fast you could dish out heals.

If haste matters, it is because it increases your total healing per second in a sustained casting situation. It's not because it gives you 100 milliseconds of margin in your reaction time to a random spike of incoming damage.

And if I remember the math correctly, it showed that in general, haste is very slightly more HPS than an equivalent amount of spell power, but with no increase on mana efficiency. However, I'll also suggest that if your healers aren't strapped for mana, then you're bringing too many healers. Theoretically you want to bring just enough healers that no one dies and they all end the fight with almost no mana left. This lets you stack more DPS in the raid which in turn means faster kills and less time for people to make mistakes.

So I can't say this is categorically true, but I strongly suspect that if all your healers are stacking haste for a fight and still aren't having mana concerns, you could get the same total healing output with fewer healers in the raid. So stacking haste still isn't optimal.
Haste does matter because it improves your reaction time. Have you never had a raid member die and been casting that heal that 'landed but didn't register'? Well 0.1 seconds faster and they would have lived.

Anywho, as for removing healers we already did that throughout ulduar and I still stacked haste. Throughput is what holy priests are made for, and haste is the best way to attain that.

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Old 08/10/09, 6:46 PM   #612
tedv
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Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Sinndir View Post
Haste does matter because it improves your reaction time. Have you never had a raid member die and been casting that heal that 'landed but didn't register'? Well 0.1 seconds faster and they would have lived.

Anywho, as for removing healers we already did that throughout ulduar and I still stacked haste. Throughput is what holy priests are made for, and haste is the best way to attain that.
Sure, we've had deaths like that. But we've had more deaths from overkill where an extra 100 healed would have saved them. Your argument just demonstrates that haste is good, a fact I agree with. It doesn't prove it's better than spell power though. How many healers do you run for your kills on the healing intense fights in the zone like Mimiron, Freya, and Algalon?

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Old 08/10/09, 8:41 PM   #613
Sinndir
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Medivh
Originally Posted by tedv View Post
Sure, we've had deaths like that. But we've had more deaths from overkill where an extra 100 healed would have saved them. Your argument just demonstrates that haste is good, a fact I agree with. It doesn't prove it's better than spell power though. How many healers do you run for your kills on the healing intense fights in the zone like Mimiron, Freya, and Algalon?
When we were raiding 5-6 for Mimiron and Freya, depending on which classes were available. Also, I as well agree that spellpower is very useful (I don't think I have ever claimed that it isn't). However, in my opinion, too many people undervalue haste. (Why I have made the comments about haste that I have)

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Old 08/11/09, 9:03 AM   #614
Elimbras
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Dwarf Priest
 
Eitrigg (EU)
Haste (at least the last time I checked) was definitely the highest stat for peak hps. It doesn't help with sustained hps.
It's so good because it's quite cheap in fact ;-)

Now, the granularity argument is not huge in my mind. It is really useful only when a boss has capacities that need to be healed in less than about 2 seconds, and can take a player from full life to death in such a time frame. For any other time, reaction times doesn't matter, and hps only matters. I really mean it : if you're loosing players that died in more than 3s, or players that were not full life before the " fatal 3 last seconds", the problem is not reaction time. Either you made a wrong decision and didn't healed in time, or you could have topped them up before (with more hps), and then spellpower would also have been a solution. (In fact, I can imagine a more cases that have haste-oriented solution : basically, those that have let's say a 3s window to heal 2 persons, and where group heals do not work, etc. but they are really similar to the one I exposed).

A few example to make it clear : Kel'Thusad frost tombs are not a problem : an un-hasted flash heal has enough time to save anyone who was topped before the frost tombs. Freya / Mimiron / XT fights can be heal-frantic, but it's more a question of needed hps to keep people alive than reacting in a very tiny window. If you manage to keep everyone a full HP (and therefore have enough hps), then you'll have the time to react and non haste-oriented gear would be enough. The only fight I remember immediatly where you could die because of reaction time was Hyjal's first boss : Rage Winterchill. With undergeared characters (I went there with an alt with around 9k health), the icebolt (the block of ice) could be fatal in less than 2s (4250 - 5750 direct damage, plus a dot at 2500 per second for four seconds). The problem nearly disappeared when you had more than 10k750 health, because you could afford the direct damage + 2 ticks before any healing.

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Old 08/11/09, 9:40 AM   #615
tedv
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Related to this discussion, I've been thinking more about the [Revitalizing Skyflare Diamond]. It's clearly better than [Insightful Earthsiege Diamond] as long as you don't need the mana. The main gains from 11 m/5 versus 21 int are comparable. The proc costs roughly 800 mana per minute, or 4800 mana over a 6 minute fight. How many difficult healing fights do we end with more than 4800 mana? In my personal experience, I end fights about in that range. So perhaps it's worth trying with high end Ulduar gear.

The effect of 3% extra crit healing should be 4.5% extra healed whenever you crit, which is maybe 30% of the time. So roughly 1.3% extra healing. Because it's only increased crit healing, it's more likely to be overheal. But I suspect this effect may be discounted. The overheal is much more likely on fights that are easy on healing, meaning the mana gains from ISD are worthless anyway. On fights like Freya and Algalon, there's a lot less overheal because there's so much damage going out.

At any rate, I'm just suggesting that the metagem seems like a credible alternative and we should test it out to see how it performs. Have any holy priests tried raiding high end content with [Revitalizing Skyflare Diamond] and have information to share?

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