Elitist Jerks Discipline Healing Compendium v3.1

05/15/09, 12:17 PM   #136
Glasswizard
Von Kaiser

Frostwolf (EU)
 Originally Posted by Squeakster I also disagree with this idea of "filler" spells. I assume you mean that while Penance is on CD and the tank already has Weakened Soul, you should be casting "filler" spells. I think it is a waste to just mindlessly cast Flash Heal (or anything else) while waiting for Penance or Weakened Soul to come off CD. If your tank is at 100% why mindlessly cast Flash Heal? I would rather start casting Greater Heal and then cancel it at 0.5 seconds left if my tank is still at full HP.
Well, the obvious advantage of mindlessly casting Flash Heal compared to canceling Greater Heal is that you're stacking DA. But I agree, if the tank is taking heavy damage then I will rather choose Greater Heal as my filler spell. But I don't cancel it. Though these days I'm not tankhealing much anymore anyway. Shieldspamming the raid most of the time ...

05/15/09, 12:19 PM   #137
Rorimli
Glass Joe

Dwarf Priest

Deathwing (EU)
 Originally Posted by Kashir snip X = 1718
Thanks ^^

I've been using mostly spirit so far for the same reason that I could respec to shadow/holy if interested. I tried it out on PTR some but while Body And Soul was a bit of fun I just preferred my bubble business.

So mp5 is a bit better for now unless you have intellect trinkets BUT if you want socket bonuses from your blue sockets in your ilvl 226+ gear with high intellect it's problably better to socket 8 spirit over 3 mp5 because it's about the same and add's the flexibility of being able to easily switch over

Anyone got the overview to figure out how much unbuffed intellect you would need to hit the buffed intellect we were talking about?

 05/15/09, 1:00 PM #138 Elimbras Don Flamenco   Mordil Dwarf Priest   Eitrigg (EU) Flash is also better for keeping inspiration up ;-). But the debate flash vs great won't have any definitive answer unless you have a particular damage pattern ;-)
05/15/09, 1:35 PM   #139
Forces
Glass Joe

Ysondre
 Originally Posted by Rorimli Thanks ^^ I've been using mostly spirit so far for the same reason that I could respec to shadow/holy if interested. I tried it out on PTR some but while Body And Soul was a bit of fun I just preferred my bubble business. So mp5 is a bit better for now unless you have intellect trinkets BUT if you want socket bonuses from your blue sockets in your ilvl 226+ gear with high intellect it's problably better to socket 8 spirit over 3 mp5 because it's about the same and add's the flexibility of being able to easily switch over Anyone got the overview to figure out how much unbuffed intellect you would need to hit the buffed intellect we were talking about?
Body and Soul is not necessarily a vital talent, but it has saved people's lives. Helping people move faster out of the raid group with Light Bomb, all while absorbing a small amount of damage is definitely worth it to pick up the talent.

And probably the best thing to socket in a blue socket is [Seer's Forest Emerald]. Adds a small amount of throughput and helps with longevity.

05/15/09, 2:41 PM   #140
Promethia
Piston Honda

Blood Elf Priest

Kilrogg
 Originally Posted by Rorimli Kings+Enlightenment (2-(0.9*0.94)=1,154)
 Originally Posted by Kashir So you need 1718 Intellect before Spirit is greater than mp5 for equal itemisation budget, assuming 100% I5SR.
 Originally Posted by Rorimli Anyone got the overview to figure out how much unbuffed intellect you would need to hit the buffed intellect we were talking about?
Yeah, those posted numbers are not quite fair because you're applying modifiers to spirit but not to intellect, so your calculated breakpoint for intellect is really intellect after buffs. A reader perusing the post may miss that detail and be misled into thinking they need a lot more intellect than they actually do.

Considering only the substantial raid buffs to intellect (arcane brilliance, gift of the wild, and kings), the value at least should be modified by

$f(x)= \frac{x}{1.1} - 97$

For X = 1510 (the gem equivalency), that is 1276. For X = 1718, it is 1465.

Also, assuming 100% I5SR is pretty harsh. There are situations where ooFSR regen is still significant. On the other hand if you assume 100% iFSR, spirit becomes rather absolutely better than mp5 at the above levels of intellect.

Last edited by Promethia : 05/15/09 at 4:29 PM.

05/16/09, 10:43 AM   #141
Mocha
Glass Joe

Blood Elf Priest

Kazzak (EU)
 Originally Posted by Squeakster I also disagree with this idea of "filler" spells. I assume you mean that while Penance is on CD and the tank already has Weakened Soul, you should be casting "filler" spells. I think it is a waste to just mindlessly cast Flash Heal (or anything else) while waiting for Penance or Weakened Soul to come off CD. If your tank is at 100% why mindlessly cast Flash Heal? I would rather start casting Greater Heal and then cancel it at 0.5 seconds left if my tank is still at full HP.
By filler spell, I mean the spell I choose to heal with when penance is on CD and the person already has the WS debuff, if I waited for penance, the person would be dead. I don't mindlessly spam.

Right now the main reason I don't use Greater Heal is the long cast time. When there's spiky damage, if my pre-casting is off, the tank dies. And if there's big damage incoming, I find it very useful to spam Flash Heal a bit to get as many DA stacks as possible.

Last edited by Mocha : 05/16/09 at 10:51 AM.

05/16/09, 1:42 PM   #142
Squeakster
Piston Honda

Dwarf Priest

Eitrigg
 Originally Posted by Mocha By filler spell, I mean the spell I choose to heal with when penance is on CD and the person already has the WS debuff, if I waited for penance, the person would be dead. I don't mindlessly spam. Right now the main reason I don't use Greater Heal is the long cast time. When there's spiky damage, if my pre-casting is off, the tank dies. And if there's big damage incoming, I find it very useful to spam Flash Heal a bit to get as many DA stacks as possible.
I agree that we should be casting something else while we wait for Penance and Weakened Soul. But I don't buy your reasoning behind favoring Flash Heal.

Now lets consider Flash Heal. Your tank gets hit (>20k like before), you see his health dip and react (about 200 milliseconds lag + about 150 milliseconds reaction speed) and start casting Flash Heal (lets say 1.2 second cast). Your Flash Heal will land just before the next melee swing (another 20k), but it only heals for about 5800 on average (including criticals and DA). Now your tank is sitting at almost no HP and you have to rely on the other healers to heal him up before the next melee swing lands, just like if you were casting Greater Heal. Only this time you have to rely on them for much more healing because Flash Heal healed for so much less than Greater Heal would have.

I don't see how the small difference in timing between Flash Heal and Greater Heal is enough to negate the ~1000 difference in HPS when tank healing, especially given that I stacked the previous scenario as much against Greater Heal as possible. If the boss's swing timer is longer, or he doesn't hit hard enough to two shot your tank, or you are not so unlucky that your tank gets hit right as you cancel a Greater Heal, that scenario shifts to favor Greater Heal in a big way. Using Flash Heal just shifts extra responsibility to the other tank healers because you put out less healing.

Also, your second argument for Flash Heal is really an argument for Greater Heal. You say, "I find it very useful to spam Flash Heal a bit to get as many DA stacks as possible." But the key is not how many DA's you proc, it is the total size of the DA you build up on the tank. Greater Heal spam will lead to bigger a DA shield than Flash Heal spam because the size of the DA is directly proportional to the HPS of the two spells. Yes Flash Heal spam will have more chances to proc DA than Greater Heal Spam, but the shields from Flash Heal are so much smaller they can't compete with the DA from Greater Heal spam.

05/16/09, 2:27 PM   #143
Observer
Von Kaiser

Human Priest

Maelstrom
 Originally Posted by Squeakster The other healer(s) will almost certainly land something (or have a HoT tick or an earth shield trigger) in that window and your tank will survive to see your Greater Heal. ... Now your tank is sitting at almost no HP and you have to rely on the other healers to heal him up before the next melee swing lands, just like if you were casting Greater Heal. Only this time you have to rely on them for much more healing because Flash Heal healed for so much less than Greater Heal would have. ... I don't see how the small difference in timing between Flash Heal and Greater Heal is enough to negate the ~1000 difference in HPS when tank healing
In the Greater Heal section you say "The other healers will almost certainly land something", and in the Flash heal section you say "you have to rely on other healers to heal him up." So basically you're saying "It's good that other healers will land heals when you're casting greater heal, but it's bad that you have to rely on other healers when casting flash heal."

And if you don't see how the "small difference in timing" is significant, then you are probably the only person on this forum who has never had a tank die when you were milliseconds away from landing a Greater Heal. Yes, in many cases the tank would have still died if you'd cast Flash Heal. And in many cases they wouldn't have. I can't say which is more common, but you seem to be assuming that it's the former by a wide enough margin that the latter is unworthy of consideration.

Again, I'm not saying it's correct or incorrect to use either spell in any given situation. I'm just pointing out the flaws in your logic.

 05/16/09, 2:42 PM #144 Squeakster Piston Honda     Squeakster Dwarf Priest   Eitrigg You are right that my wording is wrong there. The point I was trying to make is that the reason most people give for favoring Flash Heal over Greater Heal often actually favors neither; I did not mean to imply that it favors Greater Heal. Of course I have had tanks die milliseconds before my heal lands, but there are better ways to fix that then casting a faster, smaller heal. When that happens I tell myself that I need to react faster, make quicker decisions, and remember the typical damage patterns of that particular boss fight so I have a feel for how much healing the tank needs at particular times (I need to spam when this happens, save my PWS for when something else happens, etc). When I advocate for Greater Heal I sometimes sound like I believe there is no place for Flash Heal, and that is my mistake. I do love Flash Heal like everyone else and I do use it all the time, but I see people talking about taking Greater Heal off their bars and going 0/5 Divine Fury and I think it is a mistake. Greater Heal is still many times the best way to heal your tank, but people get caught up in all the instant or super fast heals that healers have been given recently (PoM, spammable PWS, Penance, CoH, surge of light FH, etc) and forget how powerful the classic heals are, even if they take more skill to use.
05/16/09, 8:09 PM   #145
Promethia
Piston Honda

Blood Elf Priest

Kilrogg
 Originally Posted by Squeakster I don't see how the small difference in timing between Flash Heal and Greater Heal is enough to negate the ~1000 difference in HPS when tank healing...
 Originally Posted by Squeakster When I advocate for Greater Heal I sometimes sound like I believe there is no place for Flash Heal, and that is my mistake. I do love Flash Heal like everyone else and I do use it all the time, but I see people talking about taking Greater Heal off their bars and going 0/5 Divine Fury and I think it is a mistake. Greater Heal is still many times the best way to heal your tank, but people get caught up in all the instant or super fast heals that healers have been given recently (PoM, spammable PWS, Penance, CoH, surge of light FH, etc) and forget how powerful the classic heals are, even if they take more skill to use.
I completely agree that it is a mistake to ignore greater heal, skip divine fury, etc. I routinely use greater heal and do not have too much trouble finding uses for it. In fact, since 3.1 it has been easier to find uses for it since it is easier to have borrowed time up to hasten the cast. The debate over greater heal versus flash heal goes back forever. I find it annoying that at any given time, one or the other is "in fashion". I have always thought both were useful, but in different situations. Since 2004, flash heal has been keyed to my "2" key and greater heal to "3". Patterns in usage have changed over time, but both have always seen fairly high usage, and IMO both should be readily accessible at all times, especially since you have to make split-second judgements on which to use quite frequently.

Also, I agree DA shield stacking is not a reason to prefer flash heal over greater heal (or vice versa).

However, I absolutely believe the difference in cast time can more than negate the 1000 difference in HPS. In fact, I do not think of the timing difference as "small" -- it's 67% longer to cast greater heal over flash heal. The difference in HPS is more like 22%, and quite honestly it is extremely rare that the added HPS will make the difference between success and failure. Almost always the HPS on flash heal is sufficient as well.

Still, I agree there are many cases where greater heal is the better choice. My basic rule is that greater heal is better if:
1. There is enough time to cast it
2. The target can take the heal without significant overhealing
Especially when I am solo healing a tank, I find plenty of opportunities where both those conditions are met. If the tank gets hit right when I cancelled a greater heal cast, I immediately switch to flash heal if I think there's any chance a second hit could kill the tank. Also if the hit was small, then I'd switch to flash heal, but otherwise I stay with greater heal.

IMO, the crucial question is the timing. I really, really hate it when the tank barely dies 0.1 second before greater heal lands. I don't view that as me not being fast enough -- it's me making a bad choice. I should have switched to flash heal and didn't. If I have any doubts about having enough time, I do flash heal. Sure it is rare that the shorter cast of flash heal would have saved the tank, but it is extremely rare that the additional 1000 HPS would have saved the tank.

But I mostly think everyone should critically look at the outcome of their choices and decide based on that. Some may find it is not so rare that an additional 1000 HPS would have made the difference, and if so, they should tweak their threshold towards using greater heal more. If tanks are dying just before greater heals land, think about using flash heal more.

05/17/09, 1:29 AM   #146
Mocha
Glass Joe

Blood Elf Priest

Kazzak (EU)
You're assuming all bosses hit at the same rate throughout the fight, they don't. And when spiky damage is incoming, you either choose between 1-2 greater heals at most which might not proc DA or up to 4 flash heals which has a higher chance, regardless of the size. After that hit has landed, I'd rather use the penance I'd have saved rather than use a spell with a long cast time.

At times when you're not purposely spamming to stack DA, Greater Heal also overheals a lot more, which coupled with its longer cast time does negate the higher hps- to me anyway.

I know some healers like yourself almost have an emotional attachment to Greater Heal since it's been a staple spell for so long, but really, times have changed. We don't only use one spell anymore, we get to choose between Flash Heal and Greater heal during each encounter these days. Personally, I like this since I'm a fan of diversity. If I wanted to just spam a single spell, I'd have rolled a paladin.

I don't know where you get your numbers from as well. My Flash heals heal for close to 6k normal and crits for up to 10k not counting DA, when I'm fully raid buffed.

Last edited by Mocha : 05/17/09 at 2:10 AM.

05/17/09, 2:28 AM   #147
Xaphania
Von Kaiser

Dwarf Priest

Azjol-Nerub
 Originally Posted by Mocha I don't know where you get your numbers from as well. My Flash heals heal for close to 6k normal and crits for up to 10k not counting DA, when I'm fully raid buffed.
The math stated a few posts back is correct. Your numbers are a little hard to believe though, assuming you're not casting on someone with some kind of increased healing effect.

First of all, If your non-crit Flash Heals heal for "close to 6k", then there's no way they would crit for "up to 10k", because the crit modifier is 1.5, which would be a max of 9k. Second, those numbers sound very high for a discipline spec at this gear level. You would need well over 3k spell power to get 6k non-crit flash heals on the average raid member, even with tree of life aura and grace fully stacked. And while that could possibly be obtainable with current available gear, I don't see it happening with what you're currently using.

 05/17/09, 10:46 AM #148 tasha Von Kaiser   Ayune Blood Elf Priest   Talnivarr (EU) I used to be holy 80% of the time, and I'd always use FH on tanks unless I was the only healer on them, or during a heavy damage burst. Now that I play discipline more in Ulduar (mainly because our other priest is holy) I'm coming back to GH, at least for tank healing. The reasons are mentionned in previous posts (borrowed time, HpS, precasting). The overhealing problem is less a factor as discipline, because our GH are not too big like they are as holy. DA is imho balanced for both, but crit isn't the most realiable mechanism anyway. And on a side note, a GH is a more efficient use of your borrowed time than an FH. Same as above: I am not saying go go GH. I weave both of them in my healing pattern, and I'm nicely surprised to do so, after all the FH spam I was stuck with in Naxx. By the way, I rather find it annoying that the GH talents are all in the holy tree. Empowered Healing isn't even a core talent of a holy build in its current state. On another topic, I'm wondering if people refrain themselves from casting direct heals on the raid, to keep grace stacks intact on the primary target. I personaly don't bother with that, since I "mostly" save penance for tank healing, and doesn't take the grace buff for granted. (Of course I shield or PoH if possible, but that's not always available or efficient). Maybe I'm wrong though.
 05/17/09, 2:17 PM #149 Sharajat Piston Honda   Sharajat Night Elf Priest   Scarlet Crusade Also the math on precasting greater heal really, really, really needs to take into account just how short the Penance CD is. Penance>Everything except shield, it's a given if we have penance, we use penance. Now look at Penance. 6.4 second cooldown, that triggers when the channeling starts. Even with good haste and Borrowed Time, it's a 1.4 second cast. That's 5 seconds of no penance. First GHeal will have BT. That's about a 1.6 in my experience. Next is about a 2 second cast. Canceling them saves you some time, but overall, that combo will eat at least 3 seconds of cooldown time. Toss out a PoM on the tank, and you have the next penance. I mean it's not like we have to cover some vast 15 second wasteland between Penances, they come pretty fast. If your tank actually needs that wall of healing, GHeal is the man for the job.
 05/17/09, 8:22 PM #150 Kashir Piston Honda   Kashir Draenei Priest   Frostmourne Surely a large part of the equation for FH vs GH usage is who else is healing the tank? If you're partnering with a Holy Pally (which I'm sure is far more common than any other combination), I'm happy to leave it to them to provide the raw HPS to keep the tank up from those 20k hits. I see my job being to stabilise the tank by providing a fast and steady stream of heals, and FH spam works nicely for me. Providing higher HPS isn't as important as ensuring that the tank survives long enough for each HL to land. If you're solo healing or partering with a non-Holy Pally, favouring GH certainly makes sense as your contribution to the total healing is probably going to be larger. Either way I'm not planning on dropping Divine Fury; when you do need to spam big heals, you need them to be landing as fast as possible.

 Elitist Jerks Discipline Healing Compendium v3.1