Honestly what i mean when I say gear like I would for holy I mean that I favor haste over crit. For 10's I need enough haste to squeeze 5 shields in between penance casts, followed by a very fast PoH. This allows me to handle raid spikes at the same time as main tanking without skipping a beat.
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To simplify, it's based on what I need more of gcds or single target throughput. For raid healing I always need more gcds, for tank healing in 10's my single target throughput is sufficient, so I opt for more gcds, for 25 tank healing I need as much single target throughput as I can get.
When you say "favor haste over crit" do you mean going up to 7-9% Haste from gear or some amount well above that (like what a Holy Priest would usually have)?
If it's the first, it makes a lot of sense especially if you aren't reliably getting both Haste buffs.
If it's the second, for the applications you're talking about, you're (soft-)capping at between 4.3% (with both Haste Buffs) and 13.2% (without any outside Haste buff). (See Fayhand's post a few pages back.)
Originally Posted by Snowy
Lightwell owns even more because there's more charges for you if other people don't use it as much!
Honestly what i mean when I say gear like I would for holy I mean that I favor haste over crit. For 10's I need enough haste to squeeze 5 shields in between penance casts, followed by a very fast PoH. This allows me to handle raid spikes at the same time as main tanking without skipping a beat.
For raid healing 25's I like Haste/Spirit more than Crit/Mp5 as the haste grants me lower gcds for shielding and faster poh's for recovery. I also find Spirit more beneficial as I'm able to manually cheat the 5 second rule very easily since my toolbox is based on rapid single target recovery. I have enough crit that if ever I need to a single penance will put inspiration up on the tank.
For tank healing 25's I prefer the Crit/Mp5 over Haste/Spi, because I need the DA bubbles to build up as fast as possible buying me time in between penance casts.
To simplify, it's based on what I need more of gcds or single target throughput. For raid healing I always need more gcds, for tank healing in 10's my single target throughput is sufficient, so I opt for more gcds, for 25 tank healing I need as much single target throughput as I can get.
once you get your GCD down to one second all of the extra haste you have is completely irrelevant for shielding.
How does glyphed Holy Nova stack up against PoH in 3.2? Just eyeballing the changes it appears to me they were both nerfed by similar amounts, but Holy Nova would pull ahead at higher levels of spellpower?
How does glyphed Holy Nova stack up against PoH in 3.2? Just eyeballing the changes it appears to me they were both nerfed by similar amounts, but Holy Nova would pull ahead at higher levels of spellpower?
And I think that is why you see alot of raiders, glyph for that fight with the 40% bonus to Nova for Mim and some other fights oddly.. at 666 mana, hitting for around (I think) 4k ish to your group spam "able" it is not bad for quick raid recovery to a group your in.. so while using prayer of healing on one group you can snag your group with Nova..
Spell obviously has a huge effect with this I would think.
Boy it sure is weird to even say Holy Nova is useful like that still to this day for me lol.
How does glyphed Holy Nova stack up against PoH in 3.2? Just eyeballing the changes it appears to me they were both nerfed by similar amounts, but Holy Nova would pull ahead at higher levels of spellpower?
I did a quick comparison using the 3.2 numbers of PoH's spellpower coefficient being changed to 52.6% and the Holy Nova glyph being changed to a flat +20% increase to damage and healing (looking back at the patch notes, I can no longer find this, but it is at Glyph of Holy Nova Change 'On the 3.2 PTR this glyph is changed to: "Increases the damage and healing of your Holy Nova spell by an additional 20%"'). I did not include bonuses from any talents that would affect these numbers, such as Twin Disciplines, Focused Power, Mental Agility, etc., so this could be taken to more depth for slightly more accurate numbers to reflect a real discipline priest in a raid situation. Also 0% haste is assumed, and spell cost reduction, such as from Spark of Hope, is not accounted. All healing numbers are for 1 target, however both spells can heal up to 5 targets depending upon range.
The results show that Holy Nova will be higher heals per mana at all spell power levels, and that Holy Nova quickly surpasses PoH in HPS and HPET(heals per execution time) even at moderately low levels of spell power.
Very interesting numbers, I still feel that PoH is a superior spell in most situations due to the obvious factors; selectable target, not confined to the caster's group, much wider radius. I really only have one 'free' glyph slot open, so I normally reserve that for PoH (as I use PoH more than holy nova).
Your number crunching does demonstrate that holy nova is the best aoe heal, IF you can get your group clumped up enough to hit all your party mates. Something to consider for fights where that is a desirable strategy.
Very interesting numbers, I still feel that PoH is a superior spell in most situations due to the obvious factors; selectable target, not confined to the caster's group, much wider radius. I really only have one 'free' glyph slot open, so I normally reserve that for PoH (as I use PoH more than holy nova).
Your number crunching does demonstrate that holy nova is the best aoe heal, IF you can get your group clumped up enough to hit all your party mates. Something to consider for fights where that is a desirable strategy.
Something Constantius mentioned earlier in the thread was the notion of glyphs as raid healing consumables �a la flasks/food/potions; that should really be taken to heart. As you mentioned there's obviously fights where Holy Nova isn't going to be effective at all (YMMV depending on raid positioning); in those situations you might benefit more from a glyphed PoH. Who says you have to choose?
Don't get caught up in the "I don't have space for X glyph because it's not useful on Y encounter" line of thinking, especially when glyphs are relatively cheap and easy to come by. Get a stack of [Glyph of Holy Nova] and [Glyph of Prayer of Healing] and min-max for every fight.
Something Constantius mentioned earlier in the thread was the notion of glyphs as raid healing consumables �a la flasks/food/potions; that should really be taken to heart. As you mentioned there's obviously fights where Holy Nova isn't going to be effective at all (YMMV depending on raid positioning); in those situations you might benefit more from a glyphed PoH. Who says you have to choose?
Don't get caught up in the "I don't have space for X glyph because it's not useful on Y encounter" line of thinking, especially when glyphs are relatively cheap and easy to come by. Get a stack of [Glyph of Holy Nova] and [Glyph of Prayer of Healing] and min-max for every fight.
On that note, [Glyph of Fear Ward] for me and my Holy Priest gets rid of that awkward fear where I have to Every Man for Himself to get a late Mass Dispel off in Auriaya's fear rotation.
My 10 man team recently started working on Algalon. I'm speccing Disc for the fight to focus on tank healing. While I've been reading Algalon 10 tips from other priests here on EJ, I've noticed that some Disc priests are putting 2 talent points into Healing Focus and some aren't. For those Disc priests that have healed this fight: would you recommend picking up Healing Focus? Or is it better to put the two points into Spell Warding?
I apologize is this has been addressed earlier--my search didn't come up with any results.
So you need 1718 Intellect before Spirit is greater than mp5 for equal itemisation budget, assuming 100% I5SR.
With the new 25% increased mp5 values the unbuffed intellect needed should be around 2300 or 2800 buffed - That is to make 2 spirit = 1 mp5. Since I have about 1000 spirit myself (Spark of Hope) I'm in for quite a regen bump by switching spirit pieces to mp5. I hope that Blizzard will also start making Disc-aimed tier sets instead of the spirit pieces we have atm. Crit/haste is alot more valuable to us and mp5 is now also quite alot better than spirit.
My 10 man team recently started working on Algalon. I'm speccing Disc for the fight to focus on tank healing. While I've been reading Algalon 10 tips from other priests here on EJ, I've noticed that some Disc priests are putting 2 talent points into Healing Focus and some aren't. For those Disc priests that have healed this fight: would you recommend picking up Healing Focus? Or is it better to put the two points into Spell Warding?
I apologize is this has been addressed earlier--my search didn't come up with any results.
I've never found Healing Focus to be particularly worth wild to use for Algalon. The push back, if any, you suffer is mild and not a terrible inconvenience. I find that I shield myself for a majority of the fight and it helps a ton. Using 57/14/0, I've found no issues with my ability to heal the MT, be it 10m or 25m Algalon. And the 5/5 Spell Warding is really helpful, as the only damage you'll be taking is magical. If he ever hits you with a physical attack, you won't live to notice it. Keep in mind, I duo heal the MT with a Paladin, so I am there cover the gaps in his big heals with F.Heals, Aegis, and Shields.
Keep in mind, this is just my opinion and personal experience. Yours may vary, just as others get Healing Focus and some do not.
I hope that Blizzard will also start making Disc-aimed tier sets instead of the spirit pieces we have atm. Crit/haste is alot more valuable to us and mp5 is now also quite alot better than spirit.
This is a terrible idea - Holy and Discipline should want approximately the same stats (small variation is fine), as otherwise your tier gear will be crap for either one spec or the other. Moreover, given that shadow priests, mages, and warlocks all have a spirit -> DPS stat conversion talent or buff, it would be doubly silly to also create a bunch of mp5 offset cloth that would be DE fodder for everyone other than discipline priests.
It would be much more sensible, I think, to make spirit more valuable for Discipline, either by providing some sort of spirit -> stat conversion talent ala Spiritual Guidance or by some more inventive mechanic (like Holy Concentration, only for spells that you actually cast more than 20% of the time).
Originally Posted by Heenk
"IRONBRANCH, THE FLOWER BED IS IN DANGER! ASSIST ME!"
I don't know that disc needs to see a buff to mana regen. (Unless fights get much longer, but that doesn't seem to be what Blizzard is thinking) If they buffed mp5 and also added a SPI->SP mechanic for disc, that would probably be more interesting. For pure regen, you might look at mp5. But if you sacrifice some regen, then you'd go for Spi as a middle ground between pure regen and pure throughput.
Don't forget that they are buffing mp5, aren't they? According to patch notes, mp5 on gear is being increased by 25%.
But as of now, I value spi>mp5. There's really not much difference between spi and mp5 at Ulduar gear levels- atm, I'm at 1350 unbuffed int without geming for it. And O5SR shouldn't be ignored just because we're tank healers. On bosses where we have breathing room, like the long phases changes for Firefighter (very mana intensive fight), the O5SR regen is extremely handy. mp5 on the other hand isn't much more regen than spi and is static in every situation, so I really can't see what's so attractive about it.
i'm currenly working on Firefighter(10) also and not having extreme difficulties with mana. just pop your shadow fiend early enough and dont forget to use hym of hope and not beeing scared of using a mana pot and where good to go.. tho you say O5SR, but i thought that rule was gone when your in combat.. (might have missed some patch notes or posts)
cant remember exactly but some was using glyph of Holy Nova for firefighter and i tried it but wasnt to thrilled about it.. now i'm using glyph of penance and flash heal (imo really needed for some mana efficienty) and glyph of Prayer of Healing (witch i'm gonne switch back to glyph of shield now we got 3xknock on wood achievement).
the healing amount of glyph of shield seems so much better then glyph of poh/hn since its increasing the value of your shield bij 20% with seems perfect for firefighter (think of pre-shielding p2 alone)
also where doing firefighter with the following 3 healer setup:
- holy priest
- disc priest (me)
- paladin (witch i prefered to be a druid but isnt much to chose atm in our 10man core group)
i think the holy nova is better for use for a holy priest in combo with his CoH and me keeping shields up and doing some penance/flash/PoM heals and PoH(if the whole group is low)..
some thoughts about the glyphs (and maybe tips for firefighter achievement) ?
about the spirit, would love to see a change where spirit becomes more usefull for disc as well (spi gives sp or haste or something) but thats i think the benefit of beeing a holy priest and gaining extra sp with spirit, so would seem a bit hard for them if our heals became as powerfull as theres..
zomg first post !! dont flame me :P
minip
Last edited by minip : 08/03/09 at 4:27 AM.
Reason: spirit text added
i'm currenly working on Firefighter(10) also and not having extreme difficulties with mana.
Was talking about 25mans, I don't really do 10-mans. The only achievements I have for Ulduar 10 are from trade channel pugs. And O5SR works as long as you havent been casting for 5 seconds, combat doesn't affect it. If there's 2 types of mana regen and both offer roughly the same flat mp5 while one also gives some extra situational regen, which would you pick?
But for Firefighter, I recommend 3 of the following:
Glyph of Flash heal
Glyph of Penance
Glyph of Prayer of Healing
Glyph of PWS
Glyph of holy nova might be nice, but it has very strict demands on positioning, while firefighter calls for a lot of movement from fires, lazers, etc. So I see that glyph as something that sounds incredibly nice in theory, but doesn't work out in practice.
Personally, if I wanted to fit Glyph of POH in, I wouldn't drop the PWS one. I'd drop Penance, since the -2 sec cd isn't all that useful compared to the PWS heal.
The whole point in using glyph of holy nova was to counter phase 2 damage. You can position yourself in a way that all are in range of your holy nova. Just get yourself a raid icon and tell people in your group to stick with you and you'll be fine. Instead of spreading out to avoid rapid burst damage as good as possible you stack up in a group of 5 and just spam holy nova. It's sufficent to keep everyone alive and the best thing about it is that you can even use it on the run. In addition, try to keep PoM on cooldown if you have a spare gcd and that's basically how you do phase 2 as a priest. Kind of fool proof.
That's at least how most of the guild did Mimiron hardmode pre nerf. Now that damage in phase 2 got nerfed, you don't need this holy nova tactic anymore. Spread out around the boss and just stick with your normal glyphs, shield people like mad in phase 2, keep PoM on cooldown and if things look bad, use a borrowed time PoH or use penance on low hp targets. Since you have 2 priests available in your 10man group, rotate your divine hymns in phase 2 aswell. If your holy priest is a good grouphealer and your holy pala keeps JoL on the boss including some smart spothealing, this should bring you safely through p2 without too much hassle.
You can always switch to holy nova glyph if it doesn't work out for you in phase 2 without it, but it kind of gimps you for the rest of the fight and it should be easily doable without it by now.
On a side note glyph of pw:s is really nice here, especially in p1 to counter burst damage of napalm shell and for phase 2 of course.
How do you guys see our spell usage in the future? Slowing going through Ulduar hardmodes I see myself using shield more and more, and when things get really rough, I just spam it. We have a hpala on tank healing, and rdruid with swiftmend is nearly always enough to cover the tank. Does anyone here have dpriest by default on tank healing? Are they better or worse than hpala? I always thought hpala is king of tank healing with their crazy fast near spammable holy light. When it really matters, you can't reactively heal. It has to be stop casting or spamming. Imho of course
Now that PoH, HN and Penance are nerfed, I think shield usage will only go up. A virtual extra 6k life for everyone? Yes please! This does affect gearing choices a lot. Mana has never been a problem for me, yet (!), so it comes down to, hmm, spellpower. Haste is useless (soft capped at 4% or so), and crit only affects half the spells I cast. How do you feel about the spells you're actually using? Any changes in 3.2?
How do you guys see our spell usage in the future? Slowing going through Ulduar hardmodes I see myself using shield more and more, and when things get really rough, I just spam it. We have a hpala on tank healing, and rdruid with swiftmend is nearly always enough to cover the tank. Does anyone here have dpriest by default on tank healing? Are they better or worse than hpala? I always thought hpala is king of tank healing with their crazy fast near spammable holy light. When it really matters, you can't reactively heal. It has to be stop casting or spamming. Imho of course
Now that PoH, HN and Penance are nerfed, I think shield usage will only go up. A virtual extra 6k life for everyone? Yes please! This does affect gearing choices a lot. Mana has never been a problem for me, yet (!), so it comes down to, hmm, spellpower. Haste is useless (soft capped at 4% or so), and crit only affects half the spells I cast. How do you feel about the spells you're actually using? Any changes in 3.2?
I am normally the primary on our MT. That doesn't mean I don't throw shields around the raid though. The only fight where not having a H.Paladin seems to be a detriment is Algalon. I normally MT heal any fight by keeping Penance on CD, PoM, maintain WS and FH as needed... Then PW:S and possibly HN/PoH the raid with every other gcd I can find.
IMO the Penance nerf is to reign in MT healers like me that keep the tank alive through Penance on CD and a little of filler healing. The reason is if your MT healer can be a raid healer simultaneously then you can run lighter on healers and the H.Paladin doesn't fill a real need any longer. The longer CD on Penance does really require you to pay more attention to the tank.
Both PoH and HN, were situationally far to powerful when compared to other raid healers and something needed to be done. I don't see my spell usage changing much yet.
In 3.1, one of the main force of Disc. Priest for me was the "reactive healing" on tank that you could do.
When the tank was full, and if Penance is not in CD, you can "safely" use free GCD with PW:S on the raid : as soon as needed, you have a BT-Hasted penance available on your tank, followed by a still BT-hasted Penance. And you could even save PW:S on tank for big spikes.
This led to the possibility of adapting to the heals to the damage spikes, and save 1/2 healer. Where 1 healer is not enough, and you would need 2 healers to full time precast / spam. in case of spikes, you could put only 1, plus a disc. priest reacting when needed, and helping with PW:S on the raid.
This led to the kind of assumptions where you wanted paladins to be on the MT, disc. on the raid support + MT, HPriest and RDruid doing the core part of raid healing, and RShaman going where needed, especially taking care of low health people in big aoe situations (where as Hpriest use lots of Healing Prayer and provide roughly the same core healing to everyone), That was especially the case for us, because we are shamans and priest heavy (4 each in the roster), and druids / paladins light ( 2 at most of each). Typical raid setup was 1 paladin, 1 druid, and 5 shamans + priest (usually 3+2).
In 3.2, I don't know what will happens for us. Paladin will almost surely beacon the tank, and heal the raid. taking part of the shaman jobs. I guess that we will finally put Rshamans, maybee chaining with melees, on tank when needed, with still disc priest alternating, and paladins beaconing.
In 10s, things are more different, and I usely end up taking the big part of tank healing. With less penance, I'll use more flash heal and will be less helping with the raid. Gh use will still be marginal (except with BT) : it's about 20% more hps, but the cast is still long, and its hpm is in fact worst than flash's hpm. I'll save it for fights where your tank can't get gibbed in 2 or 3s (like Razzavious's adds), or when paired with someone that is giving quick heals (like another disc. priest or a resto druid). With paladins, I'll stick on flash, because the quick heals complements perfectly their large holy lights. Except if they move to holy flash spam, because of the beacon change and their mana-regen nerf : then gh will be once again useful on tanks...
07/13/09, 10:13 PM
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