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Old 09/15/09, 7:22 AM   #406
Lambi
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Priest
 
Talnivarr (EU)
Originally Posted by GIJebus View Post
It's really not that Greater Heal has poor value, it's that you're highly unlikely to fit it into it's full potential versus other healers so why bother using it at all when right next door is a survivability tool. In hard modes staying alive is everything. In 25s there are generally lots of healers and healers (holy paladins) better suited for tank healing that will always beat you to it. Considering how tanks operate in high damage situations, the heal that snuck in between a few un-avoided hits is far more important than the one that topped him off. Flash heal has the better opportunity to be that heal.
I don't agree when it comes to discipline. The only reason a disc priest has so much worse HPS than a paladin is because of the mitigation we provide. If your greater heal crits and overheals the tank when he's at full hp, you should be pretty happy because you just gave the tank inspiration and a pretty substantial shield. If you also have a legendary mace (yeah I feel it's a waste to use Valanyr when I'm disc) you'll be pretty happy to use gheal just to pump the mitigation into the tank.

I honestly don't feel that flash heal does the job in 25-mans if you start comparing it to what a FoL or LHW does. Also the shield feels too small for it to be worth it.

We keep reading about all the disc priests here only using flash instead of gheal and at the same time boasting about how they never go oom and that they only gem int. I think you're gimping yourself with that mind set, when you can be going crit and haste for max mitigation instead (as tank healer).

If you want to be as well rounded as possible, spell power is by far the best stat to gem and go for. SP gives your shields the most bang for the buck, while crit is useless and int is overrated.

SNAKE!

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Old 09/15/09, 8:56 AM   #407
Headhuntress
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Priest
 
Darksorrow (EU)
Most people stacking Int are just raid shielding so longevity matters more. For tank healing the gearing needs to be balanced. Truth is that our HPS suffers due to the lack of scaling or SP conversion talents but we still are the best partner for a holy Paladin because smooth out the healing and we can shield the tank just before the huge boss hits.

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Old 09/15/09, 3:29 PM   #408
Secunda
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Priest
 
Duskwood
I feel as though the only way you are allowed to say you don't run out of mana, and are justified in doing so, is if every single raid member is alive at the end of the fight. I, too, have >30K mana raid buffed, and I frequently spend it. Yeah, I suppose there is some overhealing going on, but you might just be saving someone by casting a heal when you have time to.
Don't just stand there not casting anything. Be pre-shielding people. That's our job.
But, for the record, I don't think we should be doing all that much "healing" anyway. Our job is to focus on the mitigation, and I will frequently shield the raid if I have time while tank healing.

Because I'm a relatively new poster, I'll post my armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory

And a couple parses:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

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Old 09/15/09, 3:38 PM   #409
Secunda
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Priest
 
Duskwood
Have we decided that it IS worth it to break 4pc T8.5 when two T9 (lvl 245) are available?

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Old 09/15/09, 4:40 PM   #410
Starfire
Honorary Toastr
 
Night Elf Priest
 
Dragonblight
Originally Posted by Secunda View Post
Have we decided that it IS worth it to break 4pc T8.5 when two T9 (lvl 245) are available?
Depends on your role and also on the fight at hand. How awesome PoM is depends on the fight at hand. I definitely would put a lot of thought into it for Heroic Twins.

Originally Posted by arison View Post
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.

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Old 09/15/09, 7:29 PM   #411
TheDoctor
Piston Honda
 
Human Priest
 
Arathor
I broke the 4pc rather quickly. Once I had 3 iLvl245 items, 2 of which were T9 set pieces I broke the set. It is really difficult to notice the change is SP... Mathematically, I took a hit though it didn't negatively impact my performance. Once I got the iLvl258 Flowing Robes of Ascent it wasn't really even close from an overall perspective.

If I currently had the set bonus I would be +70hps or so but I would have quite a bit less regen. In the end the trade of is worth it for me.

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Old 09/16/09, 3:57 AM   #412
Headhuntress
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Priest
 
Darksorrow (EU)
The set bonus is important only if you are solely raid shielding. If you are tank healing it drops below 50% uptime and loses a lot of its value and on fights like IC that you have to time PW:S and not spam it on Weakened Soul removal it's even worse. It's impossible to get 125 raw Spell Power(assuming 50% uptime)from 5 pieces though the Int, Crit and the tiny Spirit increases make up for it.

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Old 09/16/09, 8:45 AM   #413
Secunda
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Priest
 
Duskwood
Do you think the 2-piece set bonus (+20% PoM) is going to be a huge boost to holy healing? Right now PoM still constitutes a significant portion of my healing, so I know it's good for disc too, but I feel like its really going to be a boost for holy. Do you think it's relatively equal to the loss of 10% crit for PoH? Our holy priests top charts with PoH, even after the nerf, but I'm wondering if the T9 set bonus will make up for it when breaking the set.

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Old 09/16/09, 9:34 AM   #414
l337n00b
Von Kaiser
 
Human Priest
 
Vek'nilash
Originally Posted by Headhuntress View Post
The set bonus is important only if you are solely raid shielding. If you are tank healing it drops below 50% uptime and loses a lot of its value and on fights like IC that you have to time PW:S and not spam it on Weakened Soul removal it's even worse. It's impossible to get 125 raw Spell Power(assuming 50% uptime)from 5 pieces though the Int, Crit and the tiny Spirit increases make up for it.
The set bonus is very good regardless of your role. Parsing my own logs over many different encounters it is the equivalent of 151 spell power.

But I think people are also undervaluing the new set bonuses. I know we were all hoping that the 10% more to DA would bring it from 30% to 40%, but currently DA hovers around 20% of our total shields+heals, so 10% of that is 2% more healing, which is far from nothing (I feel bad for the holy priests, but the bonus is actually good for us). Similarly, if Prayer of Mending is even 5% of your total healing the 2-piece is a 1% bonus. Even if the 4-piece on our old gear was straight up 250 spell power that would only be a 4-5% bonus. The new set bonuses definitely seem like a downgrade, but not a massive one, so the increased stats will easily cover the difference and then some.

An idiot is someone who would rather be treated like an idiot than called an idiot

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Old 09/16/09, 10:43 AM   #415
constantius
Soda Popinski
 
Pandaren Priest
 
Windrunner
Originally Posted by Headhuntress View Post
The set bonus is important only if you are solely raid shielding. If you are tank healing it drops below 50% uptime and loses a lot of its value and on fights like IC that you have to time PW:S and not spam it on Weakened Soul removal it's even worse. It's impossible to get 125 raw Spell Power(assuming 50% uptime)from 5 pieces though the Int, Crit and the tiny Spirit increases make up for it.
This is incorrect, for what it's worth. I've gained 250 spellpower since entering ToC, replacing my tier gear. Partially this was going to epic gems, I'll admit, so if you wanted to gem your T8 with epic gems, the number drops down to about what you said was impossible, ~ 125 spellpower.

[Boots of the Servant] ->[Sandals of the Mourning Widow] (+59 spellpower)
[Raiments of the Iron Council] -> [Flowing Robes of Ascent] (+32 spellpower)
[Conqueror's Shoulderpads of Sanctification] -> [Zabra's Shoulderpads of Triumph] (+8 spellpower)
[Conqueror's Leggings of Sanctification] -> [Pants of the Soothing Touch] (+15 spellpower)
[Conqueror's Gloves of Sanctification] -> [Zabra's Gloves of Triumph] (+14 spellpower)

5 items, 128 spellpower gained. Admittedly it relies heavily on the 226->258 nature of my boot upgrade (*really* needed those), but it's doable so long as you have at least one slot that does that jump. It's especially notable if you have a lot of 226 items left from Ulduar. I was fortunate enough to get 239 helm, cloak, bracers, gloves, belt, and trinket, and in those slots the upgrades tend to be +10 spirit, +10 intellect, +5 crit, +/- 2 spellpower. If you're in that boat, then it may not be possible to gain 125 spellpower from 5 slots.

But if you're in that boat, you broke your 4-piece already anyway.

Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein

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Old 09/16/09, 10:54 AM   #416
Secunda
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Priest
 
Duskwood
At the beginning, it is said "Metagems--- Primary choices... Selection based on whether you need more regen or more throughput.
[Insightful Earthsiege Diamond] - The highest regen meta available until extreme levels of Int. A 45-second ICD proc that restores 600 mana and 21 intellect."

This is the one I'm currently using... my question is, what is the definition of "extreme levels of Int"? And if you achieve this number, which is the recommended one to switch to?

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Old 09/16/09, 11:05 AM   #417
Colhap
Glass Joe
 
Undead Priest
 
Shadowmoon
Hey, moving aside from the tier bonus discussion. I was just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the new trinkets, ie what would ur wishlist look like and why?

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Old 09/16/09, 11:06 AM   #418
tedv
Observation: I am awesome
 
tedv's Avatar
 
Goblin Priest
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Secunda View Post
At the beginning, it is said "Metagems--- Primary choices... Selection based on whether you need more regen or more throughput.
[Insightful Earthsiege Diamond] - The highest regen meta available until extreme levels of Int. A 45-second ICD proc that restores 600 mana and 21 intellect."

This is the one I'm currently using... my question is, what is the definition of "extreme levels of Int"? And if you achieve this number, which is the recommended one to switch to?
I believe the math said that over either 3000 or 6000 intellect, Ember Skyflare was better for regen. I don't remember the actual number, but it's definitely unobtainable right now. Once you have that much intellect, you are better off with Revitalizing Skyflare Diamond for extra throughput.

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Old 09/16/09, 11:12 AM   #419
Headhuntress
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Priest
 
Darksorrow (EU)
To clarify I was speaking about upgrading the T8 pieces to T9(and both with epic gems). I wasn't talking about any offset since you can use them combined with T8 anyway.

As for the meta if I remember correctly you need around 4000 Int to make [Ember Skyflare Diamond] better than IED but at that point you'd be better off with a throughput meta gem to begin with.

Edit: Beaten.

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Old 09/16/09, 12:14 PM   #420
Grouikette
Glass Joe
 
Undead Priest
 
Conseil des Ombres (EU)
Originally Posted by Squeakster View Post
At 2800 SP, 30% crit and 25% haste, assuming 5/5 Divine Fury and 3/3 Improved Healing:

Flash Heal
(2040 + .81(2800))*1.04*1.09 = 4884
4884*.7 + 4884*.3*1.95 = 6276 average healing including criticals
6276/521mana = 12.0 HPM
6276/1.20seconds = 5230 HPS

Greater Heal
(4270 + 1.61(2800))*1.04*1.09 = 9951
9951*.7 + 9951*.3*1.95 = 12787
12787/1050mana = 12.2 HPM
12787/2.00seconds = 6394 HPS
Thanks for the maths, even if they could maybe be more accurate according to the other posters here.

But I've been thinking about something that -as far as I know- has been missing in the GH/FH discussion : the extra 10% crit you get on tagets below 50%hp thanks to the 3/3 Improved FH talent. Did you include this data in your maths ? If not, a good starting point could be to assume that the healing target is indeed below 50%hp 40% of the time on hard hitting bosses (I think that they are the relevant encouters to compare GH and FH).
I would do the maths myself if only I knew how to do it

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