Elitist Jerks Discipline Healing Compendium v3.1

04/29/09, 7:29 PM   #76
Promethia
Piston Honda

Blood Elf Priest

Kilrogg
 Originally Posted by Fayhand EDIT: Hmm 11% haste from gear was calculated like: 50% soft cap. Enlightenment 3/3 = 6% haste Totem WoA = 5% haste Boomkin aura = 3% haste Borrowed Time = 25% haste Haste from gear needed = 50 - (6 + 5 + 3 + 25) = 11 % haste But shouldnt it be calculated like: 1.5 / (1.06 * 1.05 * 1.03 * 1.25) = 1.043, so haste from gear should only be 4.3%
Yes, haste effects are multiplicative with your haste rating being one of the multiplicative factors -- that's the way I remember it. I don't always have WoA and boomkin aura, and I'm sure others are in the same boat. Still, with just your own 6% haste from enlightenment and borrowed time, you hit the soft cap with 1.5 / (1.06 * 1.25) = 1.132, or 13.2% haste from rating.

04/30/09, 4:05 AM   #77
Evolve
Von Kaiser

Worgen Mage

Argent Dawn (EU)
 EDIT: Hmm 11% haste from gear was calculated like: 50% soft cap. Enlightenment 3/3 = 6% haste Totem WoA = 5% haste Boomkin aura = 3% haste Borrowed Time = 25% haste Haste from gear needed = 50 - (6 + 5 + 3 + 25) = 11 % haste But shouldnt it be calculated like: 1.5 / (1.06 * 1.05 * 1.03 * 1.25) = 1.043, so haste from gear should only be 4.3% From - Casting speed - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft Note: Haste rating stacks additively with itself but haste stacks multiplicatively. That means that if you have 158 haste rating, you will have +10% haste, no matter how many sources and items that haste rating comes from. If you then use troll Berserking for +30% haste, you would have 110% * 130% = 143% haste. And see moonkin-haste-cap
That is indeed correct. This seems to cause haste to be a lot less valuable for most raiding disc priests as 4.3% is very easely reached, I think this would need us to have two weightings for haste, one when the soft cap has not been reached and another one for when it has.

 04/30/09, 5:23 AM #78 Glasswizard Von Kaiser   Allyenna Undead Priest   Frostwolf (EU) Well, you have to differentiate between tankhealing and raidhealing (or maybe that should be called raidshielding these days). For tankhealing Borrowed Time will probably not always be aktiv as you would have to cast additional "random" shields into the raid and depending on how hard the tank get's hit it's not always possible or worthwhile to do that. So a little more haste is probably still good in this situation. On the other hand, if you are mainly shielding the raid, both crit and haste are only useful for the penance/prayer of healing between shields. But on most items you have to choose either haste or crit anyway. So in conclusion even a 4,3% haste cap with borrowed time still doesn't really mean that we will should mainly stack crit. Because crit is just as mediocre in situations where you use PW:S alot and subsequently have a high uptime of Borrowed Time.
04/30/09, 5:27 AM   #79
Evolve
Von Kaiser

Worgen Mage

Argent Dawn (EU)
 Originally Posted by Glasswizard Well, you have to differentiate between tankhealing and raidhealing (or maybe that should be called raidshielding these days). For tankhealing Borrowed Time will probably not always be aktiv as you would have to cast additional "random" shields into the raid and depending on how hard the tank get's hit it's not always possible or worthwhile to do that. So a little more haste is probably still good in this situation. On the other hand, if you are mainly shielding the raid, both crit and haste are only useful for the penance/prayer of healing between shields. But on most items you have to choose either haste or crit anyway. So in conclusion even a 4,3% haste cap with borrowed time still doesn't really mean that we will should mainly stack crit. Because crit is just as mediocre in situations where you use PW:S alot and subsequently have a high uptime of Borrowed Time.
The problem is that haste above 4.3% is also worthless when you are spamming PW:S. The only solution I can see is stacking spellpower instead.

 04/30/09, 6:24 AM #80 Silkath Glass Joe   Silkath Undead Priest   Ghostlands (EU) Are we entirely certain of this? I'm fairly sure that with 12% haste from gear my flash heal cast time is something like 0.97s with Borrowed Time, 3/3 Enlightenment, WoA and the boomkin/ret 3% haste. I can't check this right now as I'm at work and don't have a raid group but I've spent a lot of time worrying about the haste cap so I don't think I'm wrong. Whatever the maths says, testing in game is always more effective. Last edited by Silkath : 04/30/09 at 6:25 AM. Reason: Failing at English
04/30/09, 6:34 AM   #81
Glasswizard
Von Kaiser

Frostwolf (EU)
 Originally Posted by Evolve The problem is that haste above 4.3% is also worthless when you are spamming PW:S. The only solution I can see is stacking spellpower instead.
The problem is, that's not really a solution (except for enchanting / socketing). Every (healer) item except some trinkets has spellpower on it anyway. You get to choose between two of crit, haste, spirit and mp5 with the combination of spirit and mp5 being very seldom. So with the itemisation right now it comes down to either stacking crit, stacking haste or balancing the two stats somewhat.

04/30/09, 7:17 AM   #82
Fayhand
Glass Joe

Turalyon (EU)
 Originally Posted by Silkath Are we entirely certain of this? I'm fairly sure that with 12% haste from gear my flash heal cast time is something like 0.97s with Borrowed Time, 3/3 Enlightenment, WoA and the boomkin/ret 3% haste. I can't check this right now as I'm at work and don't have a raid group but I've spent a lot of time worrying about the haste cap so I don't think I'm wrong. Whatever the maths says, testing in game is always more effective.
I am not sure either. I just linked a similar thread from a boomkin forum about haste. Can anyone confirm the above math about haste is the same ingame or not? Maybe ingame tooltip of casttime is not correct, who knows?

And I agree with you Glasswizard. T8 gear is a good mix between crit and haste also, so maybe they want us to mix it.

Last edited by Fayhand : 04/30/09 at 7:27 AM.

 04/30/09, 10:16 AM #83 nightcrowler Don Flamenco     nightcrowler Night Elf Druid   Runetotem (EU) 1 second is the global cooldown limit. You can still cast spell quicker than 1 second (for istance if you have enough haste to come down 1 second, you can cast them during Malygos vortex like an istant, at least from what I've read). The only limit is chain casting. Basically, suppose that you have enough haste to cast flash heal in 0.7 seconds, you must still wait 0.3 second before casting the next spell.
 04/30/09, 3:31 PM #85 fknlo Glass Joe   Pubbietears Undead Priest   Mal'Ganis According to MMO-champion: Glyph of Penance: Now increases critical strike chance by 5% instead of its old effect. How big of a nerf/buff/nothing is that going to be? I'm not good with the maths, so I can't figure out if the increase in DA procs will be enough to counter the pure throughput. Last edited by fknlo : 04/30/09 at 3:41 PM.
04/30/09, 4:10 PM   #86
Dekkar
Piston Honda

Alleria
 Originally Posted by nightcrowler 1 second is the global cooldown limit. You can still cast spell quicker than 1 second (for istance if you have enough haste to come down 1 second, you can cast them during Malygos vortex like an istant, at least from what I've read). The only limit is chain casting. Basically, suppose that you have enough haste to cast flash heal in 0.7 seconds, you must still wait 0.3 second before casting the next spell.
While this is true, it is also less of a factor for healers than DPS people. Someone in a DPS role is going to be hindered by the GCD limit much more than someone in a healing role. As a healer, you are not always chain casting, especially as a priest. Furthermore, while there is no benefit to say, pumping out Wrath as a druid in 0.7 seconds, there IS a benefit in pumping out a Flash Heal in 0.7 seconds as opposed to 1 second. Faster heals are always more likely to save someone's life, and they allow you to heal more reactively (thus saving mana).

 04/30/09, 4:17 PM #87 Tweaksys Von Kaiser   Cinc Undead Priest   Staghelm Glyph of Penance: Now increases critical strike chance by 5% instead of its old effect. * Divine Hymn: Healing and healing scaling reduced by 30%. Buff on affected players changed from 15% to 10%. * Renewed Hope: Effect can no longer be dispelled. * Soul Warding: Mana cost reduction is now 15% down from 30%. Let the QQ commence.
04/30/09, 4:24 PM   #88
Gonzeaux
Glass Joe

Night Elf Priest

Duskwood
 Originally Posted by fknlo According to MMO-champion: Glyph of Penance: Now increases critical strike chance by 5% instead of its old effect. How big of a nerf/buff/nothing is that going to be? I'm not good with the maths, so I can't figure out if the increase in DA procs will be enough to counter the pure throughput.
This is a back-of-envelope calculation, and I'm sure there are people here who can correct me if I'm wrong. I am leaving some things out, like HPS from spells cast between Penance casts and the extra healing from an actual Penance tick critting. But this should give a rough idea of what this change is going to do.

There's really no way that this is a buff. 5% crit increases the chance that each Penance tick will crit by 5%. This doesn't affect any other spells. Say your Penance is ticking for 4000 (a nice round number, might not be accurate, but I'll use the same number for both.) Each tick has an extra 5% chance to crit. Say you start with a base crit of 25%. This will give you a 73.4% chance of gaining at least 1 DA proc per Penance cast. Each DA proc is 30% of the damage healed. So for each penance cast you have a 73.4% chance of getting a 1200 health DA proc.

Adding an extra 5%, you get an 87% chance of getting a DA proc on a Penance cast. This is an improvement of 13%. And as this only works on Penance, with the regular cooldown of 8 seconds, you have an extra 14.3% chance of getting 1200 healing every 8 seconds. Let's assume that you will always get an extra DA proc 14.3% of the time. If we do this, you end up with effectively 21.45 HPS added by Glyph of Penance. I'll be charitable and call it 25 HPS.

Glyph of Penance, in its current form, will let you cast Penance 2 seconds earlier, shortening the cooldown to 6 seconds. With an 8 second cooldown, Penance is about 1500 HPS (with 4000 point ticks.) With a cooldown of 6 seconds, Penance is about 2000 HPS. (Both not considering DA procs.)

Decreasing the cooldown by 2 seconds thus yields you about 500 HPS on average for the contrived numbers I've picked.

I'd say 500 HPS >> 25 HPS. Glyph of Penance increases throughput roughly 20x more in its current form than it does on the PTR. This is a huge nerf. And probably not at all worth a major glyph slot if the change goes through. I'd rather glyph PoH or Holy Nova, to be honest.

EDIT: Even if we include the extra HPS from the extra 14.5% chance of Penance crits, this comes out to about 36 HPS, so total this ends up being about 62 HPS by glyphing the new Penance glyph. Still over 8x less than the one on Live, and it's probability based whereas simply shortening the cooldown is a guaranteed increase. I'm becoming more sad the more I think about this.

EDIT2: Corrected a math error which propagated through to other calculations.

Last edited by Gonzeaux : 04/30/09 at 5:17 PM.

04/30/09, 4:34 PM   #89
xARINx
Glass Joe

Night Elf Priest

Scarshield Legion (EU)
 Originally Posted by Gonzeaux This is a back-of-envelope calculation, and I'm sure there are people here who can correct me if I'm wrong. I am leaving some things out, like HPS from spells cast between Penance casts and the extra healing from an actual Penance tick critting. But this should give a rough idea of what this change is going to do. There's really no way that this is a buff. 5% crit increases the chance that each Penance tick will crit by 5%. This doesn't affect any other spells. Say your Penance is ticking for 4000 (a nice round number, might not be accurate, but I'll use the same number for both.) Each tick has an extra 5% chance to crit. Say you start with a base crit of 25%. This will give you a 73.4% chance of gaining at least 1 DA proc per Penance cast. Each DA proc is 30% of the damage healed. So for each penance cast you have a 73.4% chance of getting a 1200 health DA proc. Adding an extra 5%, you get an 87% chance of getting a DA proc on a Penance cast. This is an improvement of 12%. And as this only works on Penance, with the regular cooldown of 8 seconds, you have an extra 12% chance of getting 1200 healing every 8 seconds. Let's assume that you will always get an extra DA proc 12% of the time. If we do this, you end up with effectively 18 HPS added by Glyph of Penance. I'll be charitable and call it 20 HPS. Glyph of Penance, in its current form, will let you cast Penance 2 seconds earlier, shortening the cooldown to 6 seconds. With an 8 second cooldown, Penance is about 1500 HPS (with 4000 point ticks.) With a cooldown of 6 seconds, Penance is about 2000 HPS. (Both not considering DA procs.) Decreasing the cooldown by 2 seconds thus yields you about 500 HPS on average for the contrived numbers I've picked. I'd say 500 HPS >> 20 HPS. Glyph of Penance increases throughput roughly 20x more in its current form than it does on the PTR. This is a huge nerf.

I agree with everything you said, including the numbers you posted. However, as a hypothetical situation, if you start getting overgeared for Ulduar, (and so does the tank you are healing), the need for casting Penance reduces inversely to the tank's gear level. If we assume this, will there at one point be a cap at which your target's consistency of damage/amount damage will let it be better to have 5% extra crit chance than reducing your cooldown of Penance by 2 seconds? For sake of discussion, we can say that at n amount of parry/dodge/block and armor, the need to use Penance right when it's available is at about 20%. Can anyone figure out if this will then mean that it is now better to use the new glyph?

 04/30/09, 5:20 PM #90 Clinch Glass Joe   Clinch Undead Rogue   Ner'zhul Quick wowhead item list with your stat weights, TheDoctor - thank you for all the Disc-related info/math/research! Wowhead Discipline gear list One thing I noticed is that it doesn't seem to take slot bonuses into account - where there is a yellow slot with a +7 SP bonus, it still recommends a 19 SP gem instead of a 9 SP/8 Crit gem (or similar), so take the recommended gems with a grain of salt.

 Elitist Jerks Discipline Healing Compendium v3.1