Blood queen healing isn't that different from Twin Valkyrs. You are chain casting mana efficient residual group heals like Mending and Circle of Healing, and using Surge of Light procs when they come up, and scattering a few renews. Binding heal is also excellent as it's mana efficient and twice as much healing as a flash heal per GCD.
For the record, I've tried Glyph of Renew and found it to be helpful. That really bothers me though, since it shouldn't be. The glyph increases your healing per second, but costs you more GCDs later. Maybe it's that front-loading the renew ticks causes less overhealing from other healers, as they prioritize other targets. Or maybe the rumor is true about the glyph actually increasing the total healing done by a renew.
Am I the only one using Prayer of healing consistently then? My healing rotation for fights like twins and blood queen is to almost spam PoH, using SoL procs for serendipity, CoH off cooldown, and PoM pretty much off cooldown as well to save soakers or people with the link/flames on queen. Even though I have renew glyphed and talented I don't use it much in those fights, usually pop it on a tank right after a PoH when CoH is on cooldown. I just can't imagine putting renew on everyone in a 25 man raid being realistic or efficient especially with the druid's much more powerful HoT's running.
As far as blood queen on both 10 and 25 I have found disc to be surprisingly efficient. All I did was spam shield + hasted PoH, with PoH glyphed and penance on tanks almost off cooldown since we had no paladin. On every attempt I finished quite close in healing % to the holy priest and even the shamans, and the absorbed damage from shields and DA proved invaluable.
Am I the only one using Prayer of healing consistently then? My healing rotation for fights like twins and blood queen is to almost spam PoH, using SoL procs for serendipity, CoH off cooldown, and PoM pretty much off cooldown as well to save soakers or people with the link/flames on queen. Even though I have renew glyphed and talented I don't use it much in those fights, usually pop it on a tank right after a PoH when CoH is on cooldown. I just can't imagine putting renew on everyone in a 25 man raid being realistic or efficient especially with the druid's much more powerful HoT's running.
As far as blood queen on both 10 and 25 I have found disc to be surprisingly efficient. All I did was spam shield + hasted PoH, with PoH glyphed and penance on tanks almost off cooldown since we had no paladin. On every attempt I finished quite close in healing % to the holy priest and even the shamans, and the absorbed damage from shields and DA proved invaluable.
If your raid has multiple people rolling hots on the raid, groups will almost never drop low enough for a prayer of healing to be efficient. Shields may appear effective on world of logs for fights like blood queen, but if you think about it, if you shield someone who's at 100% with a hot on them, all you're really doing is preventing the hot from being effective. Renew spamming is definitely the way to go during those fights when mending and circle of healing are on cooldown.
Last edited by RootBreaker : 01/25/10 at 11:47 AM.
Reason: Removed duplicate information about renew glyph
Here's the link to our kill last night - if someone could suggest a more mana effective means of putting out the healing required, I'd be glad to hear it, as having to rely on multiple innervates from multiple druids in a 10 man feels like a massive crutch.
Could it be that your tackling some serious task ? Two raid healers is a good setup for Festergut/Rotface/Putricide but I find it's a strange idea for Lana'thel and her minions. Congrats for your down.
If your raid has multiple people rolling hots on the raid, groups will almost never drop low enough for a prayer of healing to be efficient. Shields may appear effective on world of logs for fights like blood queen, but if you think about it, if you shield someone who's at 100% with a hot on them, all you're really doing is preventing the hot from being effective.
Well, that argument could always be looked at from two sides. Who's to say whether the shield or the hot is the one to be effective? Given the choice between a hot and a shield, I'd take the shield anytime, just because it gives more buffer for mistakes.
That said, in my opinion discipline is just lacking pure throughput in order to safely 2-heal the Blood Queen encounter on 10 man. Around 10K HPS for the duration of 5 minutes is the target for this, and that's really deep in holy priest or druid territory.
Last edited by Hegen : 01/25/10 at 12:31 PM.
Reason: Typo
Originally Posted by Jeremy Clarkson
The simple fact is this. We are told to concentrate more. But we can only do that if we are allowed to go considerably faster.
Am I the only one using Prayer of healing consistently then? My healing rotation for fights like twins and blood queen is to almost spam PoH, using SoL procs for serendipity, CoH off cooldown, and PoM pretty much off cooldown as well to save soakers or people with the link/flames on queen. Even though I have renew glyphed and talented I don't use it much in those fights, usually pop it on a tank right after a PoH when CoH is on cooldown. I just can't imagine putting renew on everyone in a 25 man raid being realistic or efficient especially with the druid's much more powerful HoT's running.
I really don't find that many times to effectively cast PoH in 25 mans as we have a couple of druids in the group that I run with. Even after spike damage people get topped off pretty quick so I might get 1 PoH in before everyone is at a threshold I think is too high to bother casting it again.
Well, that argument could always be looked at from two sides. Who's to say whether the shield or the hot is the one to be effective? Given the choice between a hot and a shield, I'd take the shield anytime, just because it gives more buffer for mistakes.
That said, in my opinion discipline is just lacking pure throughput in order to safely 2-heal the Blood Queen encounter on 10 man. Around 10K HPS for the duration of 5 minutes is the target for this, and that's really deep in holy priest or druid territory.
For one thing, the hot lasts a lot longer than the shield. Unglyphed Rejuvenation and Renew last for 15 seconds, or 7.5 . An shield will last about 2-3 aura ticks, depending on resist luck and how many vampires are in the raid, or four to six seconds. You're therefore much more likely to cast a shield on someone who's already going to be ok because they have hots on them than you are to cast a hot on someone who's already going to be OK because they have a shield on them.
Let's say the aura does about 1800 dps on average, ticking every 2 seconds for 3600 (after resists). A player with 25k health and just the aura damaging them will die after 7 ticks, or 14 seconds. Let's say that at any point, they can be bursted for 15k. They will be at a dangerous health level after 3 ticks, or 6 seconds. However, with a druid's rejuvenation ticking for 3k, or a priest's renew ticking for 2700 every 3 seconds, at least half of that damage is mitigated. A player with two hots on them can basically ignore the aura, and even with just a renew, a player is only taking a net of 900 dps, taking them 12 seconds to reach a dangerous level of health, plenty of time to incidentally receive a wild growth, prayer of mending, circle of healing or chain heal bounce. That time is further extended by healing stream, judgement of light, imp. leader of the pack, etc. Let's just say a person with a hot on them is in no danger of dying from aura damage.
A disc priest's shield's healing, in addition to absorbing significantly less than a fully talented renew heals, is all frontloaded. It only keeps someone stable for 6 seconds. Afterwards, they'll need another hot to remain stable.
If you fall behind on keeping people stable, power word shield can definitely pull some weight, turning its front-loadedness to its advantage. For example power word shielding the recipients of the darkfallen is more effective at saving their lives than renewing them is. However, since there's a timer for pact of the darkfallen, you can save prayer of mending and circle of healing to cast as the pacted people are coming together. Also, if you're spam shielding the raid, there's a good chance that some or all of the people who get pact of the darkfallen will already have a weakened soul debuff on them, lessening this advantage.
Originally Posted by sock
There's been some discussion here with regards to mana regen, and (Holy) Priests' seeming lack thereof. I personally believe as holy, in a sustained raid healing situation utilizing primarily renew and PoM we're in a bad place right now, and I'm curious to hear other perspectives on the situation. I've gone for a gearing setup that's maximized throughput, and on some fights, like Blood Queen10, I feel like our mana regen is absolutely abysmal. While my gearing exacerbates the problem, I honestly don't believe that I could heal Blood Queen relying only on my own mana recovery (Fiend, Pot, Hymn) even if I regemmed for better longevity. Are other holy priests finding the same to be true? For interest's sake, we killed her last night, and I ate three (count 'em) innervates, a mana tide + hymn combo, and a double mana-procced Alchemist pot.
Am I doing something fundamentally wrong to be running so absurdly tight on mana? Our resto shaman, in comparison, found Water Shield kept him sorted for mana due to the aura. My concern is that if we didn't have two feral druids in our 10 man, without their innnervates available during BQ's airborne phase, I would have run dry long before the fight concluded.
Here's the link to our kill last night - if someone could suggest a more mana effective means of putting out the healing required, I'd be glad to hear it, as having to rely on multiple innervates from multiple druids in a 10 man feels like a massive crutch.
After doing that fight last night, with the same healing composition (holy priest + shaman), I suspect that blood queen is designed to be a 3 healer fight on 10 man. I didn't get any innervates (though the resto shaman got one) and I ran out of mana towards the last 10-20 seconds of the fight - 2 minutes before the berserk timer.
I did make a few mistakes though. I used my endless mana potion instead of my crazy alchemist potion (bad habit from random heroics). When I got swarming shadows, I fell behind on my renewing, and had to cast some expensive prayers of healing to catch up.
Last edited by RootBreaker : 01/26/10 at 10:19 AM.
After doing that fight last night, with the same healing composition (holy priest + shaman), I suspect that blood queen is designed to be a 3 healer fight on 10 man. I didn't get any innervates (though the resto shaman got one) and I ran out of mana towards the last 10-20 seconds of the fight - 2 minutes before the berserk timer.
I did make a few mistakes though. I used my endless mana potion instead of my crazy alchemist potion (bad habit from random heroics). When I got swarming shadows, I fell behind on my renewing, and had to cast some expensive prayers of healing to catch up.
I've done the 10m version once so far (25m version also) both were a kill of course. Our composition for the 10m was Druid and Discipline Priest . I spent mostly the whole time shielding, PoM, Penance, B.heals and that's it. Our druid is amazingly good.
Since i'm fully geared for throughput, 25m version of the fight was a little bit hard on mana for me. Couldn't get any innervate (they were all taken by mages...at least they did 20.4k dps), so either i need to swap some throughput gear for regen or trying to get an innervate. I'm pretty sure people took extra damage since it was their first time on this fight.
I three healed the fight on 10 man as a holy priest with a resto druid and shaman, pulling around 10k hps World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis. I honestly feel that three healing is unnecessary, given that you have two competent and sufficiently geared healers.
I tried healing as both disc and holy, and I feel that holy honestly provides more throughput for a fight such as this. Given the large amount of constant raid damage, your renew will have very little overheal and should effectively out heal the absorb of a power:word shield. The increased healing and reduced cooldown of PoM (whose 5 charges were generally consumed within 7 seconds) coupled with CoH, tip the fight very much in the holy priest's favour I feel.
As for the question about mana, I did find that I had to run the spark of hope but with spark I found my mana pool to be sufficient for the encounter. I'm gemmed for throughput. I may change to running elixirs if it proves to be an issue in 25s.
As for the question about mana, I did find that I had to run the spark of hope but with spark I found my mana pool to be sufficient for the encounter. I'm gemmed for throughput. I may change to running elixirs if it proves to be an issue in 25s.
Generally speaking, assuming that you start with full throughput gearing and enhancements, the best tradeoffs for more regen are (in order);
Gems: Swapping +23 SP for +20 Int (~16 mp5) is a decent tradeoff, but the disadvantage is that it's permanent. Gemming for Int is decent when you need the regen, but worthless when you don't.
Gems: Swapping +23 SP for +20 Int (~16 mp5) is a decent tradeoff, but the disadvantage is that it's permanent. Gemming for Int is decent when you need the regen, but worthless when you don't.
Also, if by full throughput gearing you include items with haste and crit but no spirit or mp5, swapping those out for items with spirit or mp5 is a similar stat tradeoff to gem-swapping, but without the monetary cost of regemming.
Am I the only one using Prayer of healing consistently then? My healing rotation for fights like twins and blood queen is to almost spam PoH, using SoL procs for serendipity, CoH off cooldown, and PoM pretty much off cooldown as well to save soakers or people with the link/flames on queen. Even though I have renew glyphed and talented I don't use it much in those fights, usually pop it on a tank right after a PoH when CoH is on cooldown. I just can't imagine putting renew on everyone in a 25 man raid being realistic or efficient especially with the druid's much more powerful HoT's running.
As far as blood queen on both 10 and 25 I have found disc to be surprisingly efficient. All I did was spam shield + hasted PoH, with PoH glyphed and penance on tanks almost off cooldown since we had no paladin. On every attempt I finished quite close in healing % to the holy priest and even the shamans, and the absorbed damage from shields and DA proved invaluable.
Holy priests simply have the capacity to do a lot of healing. Of course it would be unfair if we didnt run out of mana during that. Your log shows how other healers are doing much less healing, they probably have no mana problems.
So you either simply slow down healing, or better yet, you assign groups to healers properly.
I like the fact that when possible, we can shoot our hps through the roof. I dont know much about other healers but they sure arent doing it.
I three healed the fight on 10 man as a holy priest with a resto druid and shaman, pulling around 10k hps World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis. I honestly feel that three healing is unnecessary, given that you have two competent and sufficiently geared healers.
I tried healing as both disc and holy, and I feel that holy honestly provides more throughput for a fight such as this. Given the large amount of constant raid damage, your renew will have very little overheal and should effectively out heal the absorb of a power:word shield. The increased healing and reduced cooldown of PoM (whose 5 charges were generally consumed within 7 seconds) coupled with CoH, tip the fight very much in the holy priest's favour I feel.
As for the question about mana, I did find that I had to run the spark of hope but with spark I found my mana pool to be sufficient for the encounter. I'm gemmed for throughput. I may change to running elixirs if it proves to be an issue in 25s.
It's worth noting, the fight is significantly harder to heal at the beginning and not the end. Tank damage never changes and neither does raid damage, except for the Air Phases (and I honestly don't see how you can screw this up in 10 man... soo much room).
However, Vampires heal themselves for 10% of the damage they do and have 100% damage. I am willing to bet that is a solid 1-2k range HPS each dpser is doing once they have vampire.
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
I was disc for a long time avoiding spirit like the plague, but since we have got back into 25mans I had decided to go holy since we have 3 very solid tank heals but were a bit lacking in the raid heals department (not that disc was a very effective tank healer anyway). Needless to say, I don't have very much spirit as a holy priest now, but I have still yet to feel mana starved at any point of any fight.
This brings me to my question: Do most healers gem/enchant/gear based on the fact that they have some way to regain their mana (fiend, riptide, innervate etc...)? I only have about 800 spirit and 506 regen as holy, and I have always been able to just spam heals with no consideration for how much mana things cost--if I need mana, I simply shadow fiend + hymn of hope and get a FULL mana bar back (taking advantage of hymn increasing your mana pool and then the fiend returning 5% of that increased new mana pool). In fact, I try to gem/gear aiming to have not very much mana at the end of each fight. I feel that if I have a close-to-full mana bar, even with having using friend + hymn, at the end of a fight that I probably have a lot more regen than is optimal and could stand to get stats elsewhere.
Which leads me to wonder why spark of hope is apparently so good for holy priests? Spirit gives regen and SP, yes, but if you don't need regen, wouldn't flat SP be better?
If your raid has multiple people rolling hots on the raid, groups will almost never drop low enough for a prayer of healing to be efficient. Shields may appear effective on world of logs for fights like blood queen, but if you think about it, if you shield someone who's at 100% with a hot on them, all you're really doing is preventing the hot from being effective. Renew spamming is definitely the way to go during those fights when mending and circle of healing are on cooldown.
It should be noted that those two strategies are mutually incompatible using the same spec. If I'm choosing between shield spam and not shield spam as a disc priest, I can't supplant the loss in mitigation with CoH. Choosing between approaching BQL as holy or as disc is a worthy discussion, but given that someone has made a choice (maybe they are the only priest in the raid or they have a set role) limits how much we may criticize shield spam as a tactic.
When playing disc I would shield people at 50% HP or less. This way by the time the shield is consumed the hots from druids / holy-priests would not be wasted.
If you use Flash Heal as your filler "whack-a-mole" spell as opposed to Renew, the T10 2pc is basically equivalent to T9 2pc in our parses.
T10 4pc will be amazing on any fight with extremely heavy raid-wide AoE damage, including but not limited to the following Hardmodes: Marrowgar, Festergut, Putricide, Blood Queen, and Sindragosa. Raw HPS increases of the proc used every time it's up in simulations is about 800-900 HPS.
And the raw HPS decrease from using FH over Renew is about 4k HPS. The set bonus is horrible because the optimal case for the proc (consistent ongoing raid damage) is also the strongest case for Renew, and the weakest case for Flash Heal,
The only reason to take the set gear is if you're happy with the spirit itemisation, or you think they'll buff it.
And the raw HPS decrease from using FH over Renew is about 4k HPS. The set bonus is horrible because the optimal case for the proc (consistent ongoing raid damage) is also the strongest case for Renew, and the weakest case for Flash Heal,
The only reason to take the set gear is if you're happy with the spirit itemisation, or you think they'll buff it.
Yes, that's why Renew spec is much, much more popular amongst top Holy Priests. The 2pc T10 isn't worth switching over to non-Renew spec in most cases.
While your math is spot-on for the 4pc, you were naive in assuming that 100% proc chance on the 4pc is a HPS increase over the 20% live proc rate. Because it's not. Using your own numbers on a mini-rotation:
Given some of the posts above I am concerned that I maybe using Prayer of Healing too much however on fights like Festergut it does account for so much healing I am loathe to stop spamming it when CoH and PoM is on CD.
I have also moved from spamming FH to using renew almost exclusively except for Surge of Light Procs and I have been thinking about changing my Spirit of Redemption Glyph to the renew one. Given that we only have one Druid healer in 25 man raids with the rest being Disc Priest, 2 Palas and a Shammy wouldnt it be better to go for the longer duration of renew than the shorter but increased healing provided by the Glyph.
Also given the fact that I am now using renew so much does this make the 2 piece tier 10 a waste of time and a waste of DKP for the tokens that could be better used by others?
I have provided a link below to WoW meters online for this weeks raiding, I am only in the 25man raids and respecced as disc for the Saurfang kill.
I was holy for all the other kills and try's on Festergut.
Given some of the posts above I am concerned that I maybe using Prayer of Healing too much however on fights like Festergut it does account for so much healing I am loathe to stop spamming it when CoH and PoM is on CD.
I have also moved from spamming FH to using renew almost exclusively except for Surge of Light Procs and I have been thinking about changing my Spirit of Redemption Glyph to the renew one. Given that we only have one Druid healer in 25 man raids with the rest being Disc Priest, 2 Palas and a Shammy wouldnt it be better to go for the longer duration of renew than the shorter but increased healing provided by the Glyph.
Also given the fact that I am now using renew so much does this make the 2 piece tier 10 a waste of time and a waste of DKP for the tokens that could be better used by others?
I have provided a link below to WoW meters online for this weeks raiding, I am only in the 25man raids and respecced as disc for the Saurfang kill.
I was holy for all the other kills and try's on Festergut.
Rotation that uses PoM, CoH and Renews in between is pretty decent for those weird AoE fights like twin valkyrs. This rotation does not use a lot of mana, but is relatively effective.
However if you replace Renew in that combination for Prayer of Healing, you will do much more healing (especially with over 600 or so haste), but it will just eat away your mana. Its a tradeoff, but in fights like festergut, when the raid can just barely deal with the kill, I'm going for the Prayer of Healing option; it usually doesnt overheal too much and when you learn to use your Shadowfiend and Hymn of Hope properly, you wont run out of mana too fast.
Of course the spam phase is only active when no-one is inoculated, so its not the whole fight long.
Renew is a brilliant spell. If you find yourself in a situation wondering "Should I use renew on that target at this moment?" the answer is usually "Yes". When you learn to use it properly and learn to anticipate damage, you find that it soon takes a large portion of your overall healing.
I looked at my log from 10 man ICC and for my personally, my Prayer of Mending was overhealing 35% of the time. The lowest (per fight, Blood Queen Lana'thel) was 27% overheal. I thought/think the bonus is amazing on paper, but in practice I am beginning to wonder how good it really is.
I say this, because the 264 pieces all have stat (spellpower namely) upgrades. My 2 piece Tier 10 bonus has been rather disappointing though, it never, ever, averaged more than 2% of my healing, but it was a fairly consistent 1% or so.
I am wondering the same thing. With all the overhealing PoM does, would upgrading to 264 gear and losing the PoM bonus simply result is similar "effective" healing from PoM with a decrease in overheals. Then we could enjoy the benefit of the 264 gear stats.
I am wondering the same thing. With all the overhealing PoM does, would upgrading to 264 gear and losing the PoM bonus simply result is similar "effective" healing from PoM with a decrease in overheals. Then we could enjoy the benefit of the 264 gear stats.
Any thoughts?
The actual "bonus" of 2pc Tier 9 ranges between 1-3% based on the fight. It's an intense amount of trivial math to determine per fight, but you can do it yourself. Take any log where you have 2pc T9. On World of Logs, for example, go to the Log Browser, and clear out the general query. Add in one where your Priest's name is the SOURCE, Prayer of Mending is the SPELL, and tick the HEAL checkbox. Run the query, and you have every heal that your PoM did throughout the fight, including bounces.
For every line in the log, sum the effective and overhealing. Divide by 1.2 to see what the heal would have been without 2pc. Subtract that amount from the effective healing on that line. You now have the real bonus that 2pc provided for that one line of the log. Repeat this for every line of PoM healing.
Like I said, on the few logs I examined of my healing with 2pc, it provided an abysmally low overall bonus to my healing, typically on the 1% side of the 1-3 range. Which is most certainly made up for by 264 upgrades in my opinion.
God doesn't kill people. People who believe in God kill people.
Rotation that uses PoM, CoH and Renews in between is pretty decent for those weird AoE fights like twin valkyrs. This rotation does not use a lot of mana, but is relatively effective.
I was so upset with that comment that I started to type the reply before finishing your post.
When done properly, keeping 4-5+ renews, is extremely taxing on mana and it is also extremely effective.
Originally Posted by latuman
Renew is a brilliant spell. If you find yourself in a situation wondering "Should I use renew on that target at this moment?" the answer is usually "Yes". When you learn to use it properly and learn to anticipate damage, you find that it soon takes a large portion of your overall healing.
I believe you are contradicting yourself. I strongly agree with the 2nd statement. Using this principle in mind, the "Should I use renew on that target at this moment?" has never been a question to me. The answer is always, in any situation, on fight - YES, this has turned into reflex for me. People always look from high-chair as healer, saying that we don't have rotation and I beg to differ.
Using CoH and PoM on cooldown + renew in between is the purpose I enjoy playing a priest so much. This is our 'rotation' and if you employee the strongest trait of a good healer - predicting the next person to take dmg - these are all the tools you need to be an effective part of the raid, imho.
I've been digging through a log of a Holy Priest I got from 10 (failed, best was 3%?) tries on Blood Queen.
Of course it may have been that this player is not yet used to the set bonus and may not utilize it perfectly, but 9/277 CoH's were hasted over 10 tries. 4 out of those were cast more than 1s earlier. One of 277 was cast 3.6s before it would otherwise have been cast. (which is basically CoH-FH-CoH)
The only real conclusions I can draw from this small data set however, is that perhaps Blood Queen is not an optimal fight for using 4pt10, or that the extra healing from another CoH earlier is not needed.
My educated guesses are that this 20% chance is simply too low to rely on, and you may be too focused on what you need to do the 2-3 next heals to adjust to getting this proc before CoH is ready anyway. This of course implies that 4pt10 is simply close to useless for Holy.
Hope Blizzard bites and changes this bonus to something directly useful like 100% Critical Heal Bonus on CoH/Penance.
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01/25/10, 11:07 AM
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