WotLK Healing Compendium v3.3: Arthas' downfall! - Page 14

Neferneith · 01/20/10, 10:30 AM

As discipline raider, I understand the doubt toward haealingT10 bonus but i can't understand why some healer would want to wear shadowT10 (unless he spend a good time as dps).
Isn't the offset gear better? I made my list and found lot of non spi, non hit, non mp5 cloth.
Even if one has too much frost, he can spend them on saronit for crafts or to help with shadowmourn quest (and then ask for better loot share).
Am I missing something?

Haloran · 01/20/10, 10:34 AM

It seems the [Glyph of Renew] just adds its percentage bonus to other similar bonuses from talents. Take these talents:

Improved Renew - +15%
Spiritual Healing - +10%
Blessed Resilience - +3%

Together, it makes your Renew 128% of normal one.
Now, with the glyph, you add the 25% from the glyph to the total sum - 153% of normal Renew. Which is 19,5% increase over the non-glyphed talented Renew.

So, as far as I see it, the glyph works fine. If it's also intended behavior I do not know.

CapnBry · 01/20/10, 11:05 AM

Now I'm getting it. Actually it looks like Improved Renew, Spiritual Healing, Twin Disciplines, and Glyph of Renew are additive bonuses and Blessed Resilience is multiplicative:
Unglyphed: (15% + 10% + 5%) * 103% = 1.339 multipler
Glyphed: (15% + 10% + 5% + 25%) * 103% = 1.5965 multipler
Or a ~19.23% increase.

I see how the math works, but still say it is broken considering the difference in the Empowered Renew upfront healing doesn't equal 15% of the total amount healed. Also the glyph does says it increases each tick by 25%, it really should say "up to 25%, assuming you haven't specced in any healing talents"

Carnathagia · 01/20/10, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by CapnBry

Actually it looks like Improved Renew, Spiritual Healing, Twin Disciplines, and Glyph of Renew are additive bonuses and Blessed Resilience is multiplicative:

After some extensive testing, this is exactly how it works. Renew's current formula is:

Without Glyph
([BaseHeal]+(SpellPower*Coefficient*EmpoweredRenew))*([TwinDisciplines]+[ImprovedRenew]+[SpiritualHealing])*([BlessedResilience])

or (3000 spellpower)
(1400+(3000*1.88*1.15))*(1+0.05+0.15+0.10)*(1.03)

With Glyph
(([BaseHeal]+(SpellPower*Coefficient*EmpoweredRenew))*([TwinDisciplines]+[ImprovedRenew]+[SpiritualHealing]+[GlyphofRenew])*([BlessedResilience]))*[GlyphedTicks/NonGLyphedTicks]

or (3000 spellpower)
((1400+(3000*1.88*1.15))*(1+0.05+0.15+0.10+0.25)*(1.03))*4/5

The instant heal is 15% of the non-glyphed heal value, whether your Renew is glyphed or not. This certainly isn't intuitive and doesn't follow with other spell mechanics.

Here is as link to my testing data and results.

oolon · 01/20/10, 4:31 PM

Originally Posted by Neferneith

As discipline raider, I understand the doubt toward haealingT10 bonus but i can't understand why some healer would want to wear shadowT10 (unless he spend a good time as dps).
Isn't the offset gear better? I made my list and found lot of non spi, non hit, non mp5 cloth.
Even if one has too much frost, he can spend them on saronit for crafts or to help with shadowmourn quest (and then ask for better loot share).
Am I missing something?

Several of the pieces of shadow T10 have haste/crit instead of spirit. That'd be the main reason. I've joked around with my healers about just spending my 250 frost badges on the shadow set because the bonus is iffy for holy, and I could use it for offspec shadow AND disc. I'll probably just end up getting the healing set, though, because I'm a sucker.

PeryttCoA · 01/20/10, 8:11 PM

What do you all think about actual priest mana regen? It seems to me that we are severely undertuned compared to the other healing classes. I mean there aren't too many fights where I run into mana issues even with alot of my gear having no spirit on it but I still find it quite annoying that paladins can almost mathematically never run out of mana, shamans can spam their powerful chain heal practically non-stop without a problem and druids can keep hot's constantly on every single raid member, effectively sniping most of the raid-wide aoe damage.

Priests seem to be the only healing class that actually can't faceroll and need to sometimes slow down a bit. On the twins 25hc for example, in order to compete with shamans and their 10-11k HPS I sometimes need 2 innervates which is kind of embarassing.

Don't get me wrong I'm not suggesting all other classes are overpowered and need a nerf I just think priests could use a tune up to be on par with the others in that aspect.

Kimano · 01/20/10, 8:28 PM

Our mana is fine. As Discipline, I can literally heal forever, as my mana lasts the 6 minutes it takes for Fiend and Hymn to come off cd and they give me a full mana bar.

If you're really having trouble keeping your mana up, make sure you're swapping gems around to try and get the little bit of regen you need to last you an entire fight. Use Rawr or another simulation tool and make sure you're able to hit the break-even point for regen over your chosen fight length.

Edit: After looking at your gear, in that kinda item level, there is no way you should be running out of mana on basically any fight, unless you're doing something wrong or your dps is all dead.

Kashir · 01/20/10, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by Kimano

Edit: After looking at your gear, in that kinda item level, there is no way you should be running out of mana on basically any fight, unless you're doing something wrong or your dps is all dead.

No, he's right, at least when it comes to Twin Valkyr H. Sustaining a tight CoH / PoM / Renew rotation for the entire duration of an encounter is extremely taxing on our mana pool; I required an Innervate to survive our first Twin Valkyr H kill, and that was with a Spark of Hope.

In general, I don't think Priest mana regen is a serious issue. It's even less of a concern for Shaman or Druids, but hey. If Blizzard were going to make significant changes to healer balance, they would have done it in 3.3. The chances of anything changing before 4.0 are pretty slim.

Miarose · 01/20/10, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by Neferneith

As discipline raider, I understand the doubt toward haealingT10 bonus but i can't understand why some healer would want to wear shadowT10 (unless he spend a good time as dps).
Isn't the offset gear better? I made my list and found lot of non spi, non hit, non mp5 cloth.
Even if one has too much frost, he can spend them on saronit for crafts or to help with shadowmourn quest (and then ask for better loot share).
Am I missing something?

It comes down to if you want to gain more spirit or more haste. I am going with 3 pieces of shadow tier. I value the haste gain to be much more substantial as a disc priest than the spirit and 2 piece hot bonus.

Neferneith · 01/21/10, 5:09 AM

Sorry to have made myself misunderstood.
I don't like spririt either and pass looted token.
The word I'm looking for is gear that's not tier gear (neither shadow, nor heal).
Gear you can craft, loot on boss or buy with frost emblem.

For exemple : The crafted legs seems a lot better to me than even the last upgrad of shadonT10.

Another one : The cowl drop from Normal 10 men Bloodqueen. I guess the heroïc version would be better than second upgrade shadowT10. And much easier to get than last upgrade token.

My reasoning is : If i don't take the healingT10 road, why bother taking the shadowT10 one? Let my fellow Pal/Lock/Priest take all the token they want, I'll feed on regular loot and saronite for crafts. Isn't the itemization of tier gear weighted down by set bonus (at equal Ilvl)?

Bain · 01/21/10, 10:30 AM

Probably not a question for these forums, but i thought i had to ask. Are there many others out there thinking of keeping their 2pce t9 till they get into some solid heroic 25man gear?

On all many of the fights i've done (BQ included), the bonus just seems too strong to pass up, especially when PoM does a large majority of the healing.

RootBreaker · 01/21/10, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Bain

Probably not a question for these forums, but i thought i had to ask. Are there many others out there thinking of keeping their 2pce t9 till they get into some solid heroic 25man gear?

On all many of the fights i've done (BQ included), the bonus just seems too strong to pass up, especially when PoM does a large majority of the healing.

First of all, even when cast on cooldown in fights with a damage aura, prayer of mending should never do a majority of your healing. It might be the spell with the highest percentage of your healing, but if it's often over 30% of it, you're probably not casting enough other spells, or the right other spells.

However, even at 20-30% of your healing, the set bonus is pretty excellent, being worth 4-6% of your total healing. The upgrade of bringing two 258 pieces to 264 isn't even close to that.

Bain · 01/21/10, 11:04 AM

Yea, you're correct. My wording of majority was exaggerated at best, but at 20%+ of total healing on Blood Queen attempts its going to make me think twice about dropping it altogether, especially when hardmodes come into play.

One of the attempts from tonight:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

The log stopped recording on our kill unfortunately, as that would've been the best example.

oolon · 01/21/10, 1:58 PM

Originally Posted by Bain

Yea, you're correct. My wording of majority was exaggerated at best, but at 20%+ of total healing on Blood Queen attempts its going to make me think twice about dropping it altogether, especially when hardmodes come into play.

One of the attempts from tonight:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

The log stopped recording on our kill unfortunately, as that would've been the best example.

Here's my best Queen attempt: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Pulse-aura fights are great for PoM, but Renew is even better. Blood Queen is even more fun to heal than Heroic Twins or Illidan with no CoH.

PoM can be 30% on a couple of fights, but it's very rarely under 20% if you cast it every 7 seconds, and that's because it beats other heals to the damage, so it's usually very effective. I don't plan on dropping the 2p T9 for a very long time, if at all. Also consider that the extra 100 spell power you'd get from those two pieces going from ilvl 245 to 277 probably won't counter the fact that your other 13 pieces of gear will have 600 more spell power, and the PoM bonus increases with that, as well. The PoM set bonus scales with your gear. If you have the 258 pieces, then it's even less of a sacrifice. At this point, I believe that even 2p 245 is superior than the T10 bonuses.

Disclaimer for the following: I know my math isn't perfect. Just doing a quick sketch here for you for what I'd already assumed in my mind.

The drawbacks for T10 as Holy are these: Flash Heal is 10% or less of my total healing, almost always free and non-crit. The 2p bonus then is probably less than 1% additional healing on average. Now the real test is the 4p. Extra Circles of Healing would not go to waste on a fight like Blood Queen, but the issue is I would have to Flash more to get them. Those GCDs are almost always Renews on fights like Blood Queen, and I hope you can see why. If I cast 30 CoHs and 100 Renews in a fight like Blood Queen, then with 4p I'm going to gain about six additional CoHs and Flash Heals at the cost of 12 GCDs (Renews in this case). Using my breakdown above, 20% more CoH is +4% additional total healing, six Flash Heals would be another +1%, and losing twelve Renew and Empowered Renew casts would be roughly -5.8% (12% of 48%). Oh, and I also lost 20% to my PoM, so that's -3.42%. So assuming an average 20% proc rate on the T10, I've lost a bit of HPS (a net of -4% or so) choosing to Flash and CoH over my normal raid healing "rotation" (PoM, CoH, Renew, other spells as needed).

So the problem with the 4p T10 as a Renew-centric Holy priest is that two Renews are better in a heavy raid healing situation than a Flash and a CoH. If the 4p isn't made for a fight like Blood Queen, then what is it for? Discipline? Absolutely, I bet that's top notch for Disc, and I'll probably be looking at that later on. But I'm a Holy priest. I'm rather exceptional at it, and I've been doing it for a while now. The 4p isn't for me, and keeping the 2p T9 is a no-brainer for someone with my healing philosophy and style.

It's nice to finally be able to put into words what's been nagging at me for a while now. Blood Queen just helped me along. Hope this made sense (and helped some of you).

meddle · 01/21/10, 4:06 PM

Originally Posted by oolon

I'm rather exceptional at it, and I've been doing it for a while now. The 4p isn't for me, and keeping the 2p T9 is a no-brainer for someone with my healing philosophy and style.

5-healing the fight with zero Resto Druids will of course produce nice results for an aggressive Holy Priest pushing all the buttons, like in the logs you posted. There's nothing wrong with that setup if it's working for you, but I wouldn't draw too many conclusions with the logic: "there's more healing to do in my raid so X, Y, and Z."

2-piece t9 is undoubtedly worth wearing over higher item level ICC pieces for Lana'thel (at least at current gear levels), I don't think anyone will argue that fact; however, it's somewhat flawed to say "my healing philosophy is that I will always need PoM healing for this much at the expense of more spell power and stats," which is what most will get from your post.

Regarding your comments on the tier, I'm of the mind that as long as I have frost emblems to burn, and I'm 100% of the time going to be Holy in our raids, it is worthwhile to grab 2-piece simply because a healing increase is a healing increase, no matter how mediocre. On average, the 2-piece increases my healing by 1%, so while it's been lackluster, it's been something. I would have preferred more than two haste pieces in our tier as well, but upgrades are upgrades, and the spell power you gain from taking these pieces is worth it, in my opinion, over waiting for your personal BiS offset loot to drop.