WotLK Healing Compendium v3.3: Arthas' downfall! - Page 3

Nerix · 12/10/09, 1:00 PM

Originally Posted by itsmekp

Nerix,

Looking at your armory first off I have to ask the question why you would gem sp/haste and sp/mp5? I feel that you should be able to get enough haste from gear alone. In my current gear im at about 18% haste with just gear. As for the Mp5, I haven't raided a whole lot as disc so I wouldn't know for sure if mp5 really was that important. As far as my experience when I do "need" to raid as disc. I find it that I NEVER run out of mana. So I would assume that gemming anything other then spellpower is a waste. I dont know what your situation with healing is so I cant assume that you're doing anything wrong. You also stated that you are a support raid healer as disc. I see that disc with its no cd pws is very good for blanket coverage of the raid, however I disagree with any disc healers doing any sort of raid healing. Even with borrowed time POH. Yes its viable but not the most effecient you could be. Again I dont know you're situation so i won't judge. I can only speak of my personal experience and my opinions. I have a question about your spec, I see that you take only 1/3 grace. And I'm assuming that its because you dont do a whole lot of if any tank healing. I would also suggest Desperate Prayer. I know its a crutch for some people but I'm sure a lot of people would agree that that has saved their lives more then once before. I've had this argument over and over with other priests deciding what gems were better from disc priests. And I still believe that Spellpower out weighs any other stat. AS long as you dont have mana issues spellpower should be number 1 priority. ALL of your other stats (haste, crit, etc) are easily attainable through gear alone. Thats just my opinion. I'm having to raid as disc more often due to the lack of tank healers in our guild (we have 1 holy paladin, 2 resto druids, 2 priests, and a dual spec boomkin/tree) Needless to say we're hurting for heals.

Hey,
thank you for your suggestions.
I'm the only Disc/Holy Priest in the Guild at the moment and most parts of my current gear i'm also using for Holy. So there are many gems for Sp/Haste and SP/MP5 in fact of my Parts, where i specced Holy. Spirit is useless for Disc, so i gemmed MP5 to got a better manareg on Disc AND Holy.

I was specced 53/18 a short time ago with 2/2 in Grace. I respecced, because in ICC there is not that much Damage on Tanks with 2 Holy Paladins healing the Tanks.

Desperate Prayer is of course a nice spell, but when you get hit by random aggro or something, you are most of the time a one hit wonder (thats my oppunion).

Hopefully there will be another Priest joining us, so i can full concentrate on Disc and regem my Equipment.

itsmekp · 12/10/09, 1:05 PM

11 spirit = 4 Mp5, with no spellpower gains (as Disc). 12 spellpower 10 spirit

You're probably better off using that for blue gems incase you need to switch between the holy and Disc. And like people throughout the forums say, if you don't run out of mana dont gem for it. So if you're not having any mana issues (which after looking at you gear I wouldnt think you would) you should gem for SP. As for being the only holy/disc priest...wtb same situation. My wife raids with us and shes a holy priest too...irl drama inc for clothy gears lol.

As for the desperate prayer, yes you are right about a lot of times when we do get hit its a 1 shot. But a lot of things wont one shot us as well. Only examples I can really think of are from the Saurfang (if you fall behind binding heal) and from DnD from the second boss. Just things that can catch you off guard and allow you to fall behind your personal heals. And thats just my opinion.

Turrin · 12/10/09, 1:51 PM

Originally Posted by meddle

The math surrounding the Soul and the Spark have been done again and again if you do a quick search.

....

[Ephemeral Snowflake] was bugged for spells like Penance and PoM on the PTR and I haven't seen it drop on live yet to know if they've fixed that; I assume they have. Interestingly, if it obeys the [Glyph of Prayer of Healing] like it does the [Glyph of Circle of Healing], there is the potential for the Snowflake to grant you 110 for each PoH.

...

I can assure you it has not been fixed, it was not working off of Pennance or PoM last night. I got the drop, and took it in the hopes that i could find a situational use for it (I am disc).

Turns out it would work better for a shadow priest, the thing procs off of VE. Over a minute on the target dummy, i got about 4.9k mana back. Add in a 4 more people receiving VE, and I can see myself freeing up 8 or more talent points in my shadow offspec. You would never have to worry about mana again.

Sinndir · 12/10/09, 2:26 PM

Originally Posted by Squeakster

Whoa now, as a veteran of these forums you should know that statement is controversial and still hotly debated. It's been shown many times that an appropriately talented Greater Heal is more than 1000 HPS higher than Flash Heal for approximately the same HPM. I know people are tired of the Greater Heal vs Flash Heal debate, but I think it is important that the compendium present both sides of the argument so players can decide for themselves.

Controversial, sure. Isn`t that what these forums are for? As for appropriately talented, yeah then it is better. But are you really going to dump in 13 talents from a holy tree that already makes choices tough to a spell you rarely use? Not only that, but Gheal just isn't very good for raid healing. (You and I know as well as everyone else here that is our job as holy).

As far as [Ephemeral Snowflake] is concerned my fellow priest in guild has confirmed it giving him 66 mana from CoH, 11 mana per PoM bounce, 55 mana on a PoH, Empowered Renew does not give 11 mana but each renew tick does, binding heal gives 22 mana. So just from those numbers casting 1 spell every 2 seconds over a minute (very doable) you are looking at 27.5 mp5 scaling up way higher than that using multi-targetted heals.

Example: 1 minute of casting (CoH, PoM on cooldown and a GCD spell every chance inbetween) @1.3 GCD:
10x CoH - 660 mana
8x PoM (3 bounces each) - 264 mana
14 GCD Spells (renew) - 770 mana
14 GCD Spells (Flash) - 154 mana
Total - 1848 mana returned @ 154 mp5 (Pretty gross)

As for the compendium main post, I have my last day of internship today (friday and the weekend off). So I'll be getting that first post up to speed with a lot of stuff that has been said here as well as creating a quick list and looking in-depth at the T10 bonus'.

tedv · 12/10/09, 2:29 PM

Originally Posted by Turrin

I can assure you it has not been fixed, it was not working off of Pennance or PoM last night. I got the drop, and took it in the hopes that i could find a situational use for it (I am disc).

Turns out it would work better for a shadow priest, the thing procs off of VE. Over a minute on the target dummy, i got about 4.9k mana back. Add in a 4 more people receiving VE, and I can see myself freeing up 8 or more talent points in my shadow offspec. You would never have to worry about mana again.

I only count 6 points. I think you still want 2/2 Veiled Shadows simply because Shadowfiend is a ton of damage, and one extra cast per fight is meaningful. Regardless though, where are you going to move the talent points in a place that they matter? I guess it lets you get both Spirit Tap and Silence + Psychic Horror. The full 5 points for Improved Spirit Tap basically just makes each point of spirit worth an extra 0.05 spell power though. So if you have 600 spirit, you gain 30 spell power. Not exactly the best return on investment ever. Keep in mind that you've lost 150 spell power because you're using a throughput trinket. I don't see how this is a net gain.

Furinaux · 12/10/09, 3:04 PM

Originally Posted by Sinndir

Controversial, sure. Isn`t that what these forums are for? As for appropriately talented, yeah then it is better. But are you really going to dump in 13 talents from a holy tree that already makes choices tough to a spell you rarely use? Not only that, but Gheal just isn't very good for raid healing. (You and I know as well as everyone else here that is our job as holy).

I pretty much agree with Sinndir's approach towards Gheal. It might not be completely accurate to my views, but it's basically in the bullseye. I actually took the 5 points out of Divine Fury to get 2/2 Healing Focus and 3/3 Improved Renew (yes, I know they suck). Basically I saw myself doing 0-2 Gheals per bossfight. I had the talent in the first place, rationalizing that when I want to use Gheal I have it, but now I've completely gone towards Ghealing only with an Inner Focus buff (if PoH isn't necessary). If I do Gheal I have 27% increased casting without BT proc'd in a 25 man, so I feel pretty confidently in the clear.

I suppose it is broken down to playstyle if Disc priests really find effective use of Gheal (though, sorry if my candor offends anyone, but I find it hard to believe you're truly being efficient). I prefer the machine-gun style of Fheals (and I am 99% of the time tank healing). With the new T10 HoT effect, I can't imagine not using Fheal, but the HoT probably wouldn't make up for the aforementioned 1000 HPS differential. Still excites me, though.

tasha · 12/10/09, 4:20 PM

The GH vs FH debate is moot for holy spec.
About discipline, it's Spell Warding vs Divine Fury. Both choices have pros and cons.

Personaly, I pull off some GH's when I'm alone on a Tank, or on specific Fusion Punch-style abilities.
It's true that GH's niche in our healing pattern is small (especialy in 25 men). But it's still a better HPS than FH, and we're talking about min-maxing here.
Try to use it, if it overheals or if your tank dies, don't.

Squeakster · 12/10/09, 4:25 PM

Originally Posted by Sinndir

Controversial, sure. Isn`t that what these forums are for? As for appropriately talented, yeah then it is better. But are you really going to dump in 13 talents from a holy tree that already makes choices tough to a spell you rarely use? Not only that, but Gheal just isn't very good for raid healing. (You and I know as well as everyone else here that is our job as holy).

I agree, I'm always up for a good debate. I was responding to your post stating that Discipline priests should not cast Greater Heal. I will agree with you whole-heartedly that a Holy priest has no use for Greater Heal when raid healing.

It really isn't that significant of a talent investment, illustrated by this spec, in which you are only sacrificing Spell Warding (marginal loss), Desperate Prayer (marginal loss), and 3% crit from Focused Will (marginal loss). The loss of those talents is more than made up by the extra 1000 HPS of Greater Heal.

Originally Posted by Furinaux

I suppose it is broken down to playstyle if Disc priests really find effective use of Gheal (though, sorry if my candor offends anyone, but I find it hard to believe you're truly being efficient). I prefer the machine-gun style of Fheals (and I am 99% of the time tank healing). With the new T10 HoT effect, I can't imagine not using Fheal, but the HoT probably wouldn't make up for the aforementioned 1000 HPS differential. Still excites me, though.

The definition of efficiency, to me, is HPM, and by that measure Greater Heal is as efficient as Flash Heal (actually GH is slightly more efficient, and will scale better as we get ICC gear). Now we can argue about whether or not Greater Heal leads to more overheal than Flash Heal, but it's pretty difficult to prove either side of that argument. In the end though, the vast majority of posters here have expressed the same sentiment that they never have mana problems, so even if Greater Heal does overheal more and therefore is slightly less efficient, does it really matter?

I do still like to mix in the occasional Flash Heal when I'm tank healing, and with the T10 2-piece bonus I am sure I will continue to do so as it is a nice little bonus, but I certainly wouldn't consider it the kind of bonus that changes the way one plays (or the 4-piece for that matter).

Carnathagia · 12/10/09, 5:05 PM

Originally Posted by Squeakster

a Holy priest has no use for Greater Heal when raid healing.

How are you using your serendipity stack? The only boss I've found a use for Prayer of Healing is Lady Deathwhisper P2, covering frostbolt volleys and the occasional melee fail at spirits. Otherwise the damage patterns just didn't support 3 or more people missing 5k+ hp in the same group at the same time. Especially while 2 healing 10 man as Holy with a Holy Paladin, I found myself dropping Serendipity stacks into Greater Heals on the tanks. The incoming damage is less spiky than it was (at least in the current easy mode), and I found I could consistently land hasted Greater Heals with little to no over-healing to help out when healing would get a little behind (Paladin impaled, Mark of the Fallen Champion, missed frostbolt interrupt, etc.)

Squeakster · 12/10/09, 5:55 PM

I almost never play as Holy so my views are merely what I see written by posters here whose opinions I respect. If ICC is changing how Holy priests use Greater Heal then I am out of the loop. My interest in the debate is how Disc priests utilize Greater Heal.

Kashir · 12/10/09, 6:04 PM

Originally Posted by Carnathagia

How are you using your serendipity stack? The only boss I've found a use for Prayer of Healing is Lady Deathwhisper P2, covering frostbolt volleys and the occasional melee fail at spirits. Otherwise the damage patterns just didn't support 3 or more people missing 5k+ hp in the same group at the same time. Especially while 2 healing 10 man as Holy with a Holy Paladin, I found myself dropping Serendipity stacks into Greater Heals on the tanks. The incoming damage is less spiky than it was (at least in the current easy mode), and I found I could consistently land hasted Greater Heals with little to no over-healing to help healing would get a little behind (Paladin impaled, Mark of the Fallen Champion, missed frostbolt interrupt, etc.)

The problem I have with this general approach is that in cases where there is a need to be a flexible healer (10 man raids are a great example), why would I be Holy? Holy excels when there's huge amounts of AOE damage flying around, in which case chances are good that I won't be able to help much with the tanks.

On any fight which calls for flexible healing, I simply swap to Disc; Penance and PWS are far superior for reactive healing than Serendipity + GH could ever hope to be.

The best case for a flexible Holy spec is if you're running with multiple Priests in a 10 man group; if you do, then speccing for Divine Fury and Empowered Healing is quite a reasonable decision.

Furinaux · 12/11/09, 12:39 AM

Originally Posted by Squeakster

The definition of efficiency, to me, is HPM, and by that measure Greater Heal is as efficient as Flash Heal (actually GH is slightly more efficient, and will scale better as we get ICC gear). Now we can argue about whether or not Greater Heal leads to more overheal than Flash Heal, but it's pretty difficult to prove either side of that argument. In the end though, the vast majority of posters here have expressed the same sentiment that they never have mana problems, so even if Greater Heal does overheal more and therefore is slightly less efficient, does it really matter?

I do still like to mix in the occasional Flash Heal when I'm tank healing, and with the T10 2-piece bonus I am sure I will continue to do so as it is a nice little bonus, but I certainly wouldn't consider it the kind of bonus that changes the way one plays (or the 4-piece for that matter).

Yes, I agree. Efficiency is HPM to me as well and GHeal actually is slightly more efficient even against a talented+glyphed FHeal. I suppose the word I should've used was "effectively" healing, AKA doing your part.

I don't have any anecdotal evidence, though, towards the overhealing argument, and just as you said, it's probably too difficult to prove regardless. I'd like to try the GHeal approach maybe someday and see how it works. FHeal just seems natural and has worked perfectly for me so far. Makes sense to use GHeal to overheal with if you aren't running out of mana, though.

Lambi · 12/11/09, 4:31 AM

Originally Posted by Squeakster

I almost never play as Holy so my views are merely what I see written by posters here whose opinions I respect. If ICC is changing how Holy priests use Greater Heal then I am out of the loop. My interest in the debate is how Disc priests utilize Greater Heal.

I gear solely for holy, but sometimes have to go disc. This means that with my holy playstyle I have a serious amount of haste (1020 currently). As disc with 1020 haste greater heal is just fast enough and packs so much more of a punch than flash heal does, so for me it just feels weird using flash heals on tanks in most situations.

This gearing is great for tank healing, but not optimal for raid shielding (not so much SP). With a little more crit I'd feel fine tank healing however and I think I can push out more throughput than most priests do here with their flash healing and intellect gemming and none of us go oom

gakutomagnum · 12/11/09, 1:37 PM

Did they hotfix the Snowflake trinket yet? They announced they were putting a short internal cooldown on the trinket.

Sinndir · 12/11/09, 4:53 PM

Originally Posted by gakutomagnum

Did they hotfix the Snowflake trinket yet? They announced they were putting a short internal cooldown on the trinket.

Yes it has been hotfixed already. CoH gave Xynthos (my guildmate) only 22 mana instead of 66.

Originally Posted by tedv

A comment on Test of Faith. This talent is not remotely mandatory. Even if you look at it purely from a probabilities stand point, each point has a 50% chance of giving 4% healing. That works out to 2% healing per point, making it better than Spiritual Healing, another mandatory talent. In practice though, someone most needs extra healing when they are below 50%, making this talent even better than Spiritual Healing.

I agree that Blessed Resilience is a situational talent that you may or may not want though. I personally take it by skipping some longevity talents like Healing Prayers. But I don't think it's fair to pose the question as "Should I take blessed resilience or test of faith?"

3% all the time is stronger than 12% 'some of the time'. Probability does not give Test of Faith a 50% chance to increase healing, it is really difficult to model the amount of time your healing target will be at or below 50% but it definitely is not half the time. I agree wholeheartedly that those who need the healing (sub 50%) get more healing, but at the same time the rate at which you're healing someone <50% health could be not as much as we may think.

[quote=tedv;1485244
Surge of Light is a highly misunderstood talent. It doesn't give you a 25%/50% chance for each crit that occurs. Rather, the server checks if your spell generated any crits at all. If it did, you have a 25%/50% chance of proccing a surge of light.

For example, suppose you cast a Circle of Healing and gets 3 crits. With 1 point in surge of light, you have a 25% proc chance. With 2, your proc chance is 50%. With only 1 point, your odds are not (1 - .75^3) = 57%, and with 2 points they aren't 87%.

This makes the second point exactly as good as the first point, so I would be quite amazed to see a spec for which the first point was worth taking and the second wasn't. On the other hand, I'm sure you can kill bosses even if your talent spec has only 1/2 Surge of Light, or even 0/3 Test of Faith. That doesn't make it optimal though.[/QUOTE]

Do you have proof of this?