@Casey: I changed my post and removed the paragraph in question. How is it then, in all the simulations (I am up to 10 of each) I am seeing a consistent double digit dps gain over 23SP?
"Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"
@Casey: I changed my post and removed the paragraph in question. How is it then, in all the simulations (I am up to 10 of each) I am seeing a consistent double digit dps gain over 23SP?
The simulations you are running are lacking all the raid buffs and debuffs that allow us to be mana-infinite, notice the mana gains reported for Dispersion. In a raid buffed scenario, you don't need to use Dispersion to keep from running OOM. When mana-limited, Intellect and Spirit both provide an additional damage increase over mana-infinite scenarios by letting you DPS longer before having to Disperse.
The current sims I am running are using full raid buffs that I know will be there ( we don't have a full time boomkin so I don't add that, but we have unholy DK so I can add ebon plaguebringer etc). And even raid buffed, my mana is far from infinite. I burn fiend at least twice, and dispersion nearly on CD for most fights. I can burn 30% of my mana inside of bloodlust.
"Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"
If you lack mana and didn't enable all regen buffs, then you'll get weird scaling that can't be generalized for other characters.
It's interesting for you to run the sims, but I would not like that everyone assume that the scaling you post holds for them.
In unlimited mana scenario, spirit and int scaling would go down (spirit scaling should be between 50% and 60% of spellpower scaling), and haste scaling would increase a lot (as you can fit more spells).
Try to add Benediction of Wisdom, BoK and Int buff.
The current sims I am running are using full raid buffs that I know will be there ( we don't have a full time boomkin so I don't add that, but we have unholy DK so I can add ebon plaguebringer etc). And even raid buffed, my mana is far from infinite. I burn fiend at least twice, and dispersion nearly on CD for most fights. I can burn 30% of my mana inside of bloodlust.
You are an engineer and have a little more haste than me, but that's not enough to explain the extreme disparity in our raiding experiences. From a cursory examination of your logs, you aren't using your fiend on cooldown.
We've wandered a little too far offtopic, so let's take this discussion to PMs before we get infracted
Rotation
Opening Sequence:
Depending on if you have to run in or not, things vary slightly, however, the typical opening sequence is something like this:
Vampiric Touch
Devouring Plague
3 Tick Mindflay
Then SW:P
Alternative opening sequences include:
Casting a SW: P to get misery up, then recasting it later on (this is very viable if you are running in and need 2 GCD to position yourself)
I recently leveled a priest and I'm trying to figure out where Mind Blast comes into play in this rotation. I saw it lower down in the post, being in the priority list. I have been working to see if I can improve my rotation/dps, but I rarely have an opportunity.
Current rotation: VT>SW:P>MB>DP>MFx2>MB (By the time I am finished with the second MF, MB is ready)
After the second MB, if VT or SW:P is about to drop I will refresh it, if not I will MF til I need to. Rarely is there a time where I feel like I need to wait on MBs cooldown, but if there is a second or two, should I just hit DP again?
I haven't played a caster class since midway through TBC and I remember that if I wasn't nearly out of mana at the end of the fight, I wasn't doing it right, though now I never run anywhere near half, perhaps it was just because I was an arcane mage. I know there aren't a lot of spells to use and a lot of GCDs, I just want to make sure I am doing everything I am supposed to be doing to maximize my usefulness in the raid/group.
When your Mindflay has a higher Damage-per-Execution-Time than Mind Blast there is no need to Mind Blast unless you need to put up Replenishment. (I could be wrong, but I suspect if there is pushback involved Mind Blast gets a bump past Mindflay as well).
Also, your opening rotation is usually slightly different than normal "rotation" because of Shadow Weaving stacks. Shadow Word: Pain should not be cast until you have 5 stacks of Shadow Weaving.
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
I see the numbers and that but when is it considered having too much haste. Right now unbuffed i am roughly 880 haste on my shadow priestwith black magic going off i go up to 1.1k at 33% cast speed increase is that too much or should I replace my Black magic with 69 Spellpower I also have DFO and Spyglass for trinks.
I see the numbers and that but when is it considered having too much haste. Right now unbuffed i am roughly 880 haste on my shadow priestwith black magic going off i go up to 1.1k at 33% cast speed increase is that too much or should I replace my Black magic with 69 Spellpower I also have DFO and Spyglass for trinks.
I am personally not a fan of black magic, but I am sitting at 926 haste and I can't get enough of it. Once I get DFO I will be sitting close to 1k haste and I want to get the RS 25 trinket for even more.
added an additional statement, minor grammar correction.
Muqq and izzolite have argued that there is no "haste cap". There is however, in my opinion, a point of intersection. This intersection is the point where Spell casting speed out paces player skill. This intersection is not simply a static point that is applied to all players, but instead a sliding scale whereby players of varying skill will reach this intersection at varying points. Remember, as you increase your haste rating three things happen. Your Damage over Time spells and Mind blast have a shorter duration/cast time, your channeled ability (Mindflay) becomes shorter, and your Global CoolDown (or GCD) lowers. As each of these three conditions change, you, as the player, must also change. You need to react faster, being more aware of your timers, and be ready to recast abilities sooner, and sooner. For some players, this may not happen until they reach the GCD thresh hold (the point at which spell casters can no longer reduce their GCD...this), which is 1.0 seconds. Some players will reach this point well before that. This is something that only the individual player can determine, and is something that should be constantly tested.
There is also the matter of dps downtime as a result of excess haste. As I said before, and has been stated for some time, the GCD cap for a spell caster is 1.0 seconds. This is a problem that is more or less exclusive to Shadow priests and Balance Druids.
Vampiric Touch, and Mind Blast have a base ( or non-haste modified) cast time of 1.5 seconds. Your GCD is baseline (non-haste modified) at 1.5 seconds. As you increase your haste through items and gems, your VT cast time, and duration begine to decrease, this applies also to Mind Blast. Your GCD also begins decrease. The problem at high haste/gear levels lies in the ability for spells, and not the GCD to continue to cast faster even when the GCD can no longer be hastened. At this point, you will find yourself with dead time. This dead time, over the course of a fight, can be rather detrimental to your performance. There is nothing that can be done about this. Once you reach 1.0 second GCD, you are NO LONGER ABLE to increase your cast frequency. As many Shadow priests who use Engineering are beginning to learn, once you reach around 1200 haste (this is not a far fetched number.. in less than 50% heroic gear I all ready have 1204 haste), activating hyper-speed accelerators brings your VT/MB to around .90-.83 seconds...dependent on the actual level of haste from gear/gems you all ready have. Consider that Hyper speed accelerators provide 340 haste (or approx 10.5%). Bloodlust provides 30% as a comparison. The question I have been trying to flesh out is whether the benefits to DoT's outweighs the loss of cast activity caused by going under GCD cap every 60 seconds + the 45 seconds of Bloodlust.
Edit: As "the not so evil" pointed out in the post below, Lag will play staggering role in how haste affects your dps gains from haste. This is something that can not be prevented, and will always have a detrimental affect. While it is possible to mitigate minor latency changes, such with cast bar mods like Quartz+MF2 which can provide a buffer zone (the red section in the cast bar that changes) for spell queuing and MF ticks. At the end of the day, if you are player who consistently has lag spikes, or generally high latency, your "intersection" is most likely to be markedly lower than a player of equivalent gear/skill with a lower latency. When testing your haste value in this fashion, always consider things in your game environment that will directly impact your ability to smoothly and quickly cast spells. The ability to maintain a high "activity" percentage is a cornerstone of good dpsing.
Last edited by Bowchikabow : 06/27/10 at 11:43 AM.
"Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"
I would like your statement better if you also considered lag. Lag is real, just like player reaction. When you combine all of this, Haste no longer looks like a linear increase in DPS.
While agreeing with you that this is floating and depends on the player's skill, fps and lag, I also have to agree that there is no direct cap. But more of a point where more Haste stops being as useful as an alternative stat.
Rawr - Coder of HolyPriest (Healer) and ShadowPriest (DPS) Modules. Get Your Rawr 2.3.x!
I would like your statement better if you also considered lag. Lag is real, just like player reaction. When you combine all of this, Haste no longer looks like a linear increase in DPS.
Point taken. As someone who lives on the East coast, and plays on a West coast server, I too have to deal with this issue at times. I will amend my post to include this.
While agreeing with you that this is floating and depends on the player's skill, fps and lag, I also have to agree that there is no direct cap. But more of a point where more Haste stops being as useful as an alternative stat.
In a way, that is what my post all ready implies. Unlike hit, haste does not simply go from 100% dps increase to 0% within small window (the fact being that, once you reach 17% hit, the value of hit plummets to zero), but instead will gradually decrease your dps potential as you increase it past a certain point. Thankfully, we have 2 stats that we can use to replace haste rating when it DOES reach this point... Spell power, and crit rating. For a number of people, such a change would require little more than swapping the currently popular reckless ametrine (10haste/12 spell power) with potent ametrine (10 crit/12 spell power). This would allow you to reduce excess haste rating, increase crit (which has a much higher requirement of deterioration), while still maintaining spell power. Also, players should consider these things when developing their Best-in-Slot lists.
"Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"
Muqq and izzolite have argued that there is no "haste cap". There is however, in my opinion, a point of intersection. This intersection is the point where Spell casting speed out paces player skill. This intersection is not simply a static point that is applied to all players, but instead a sliding scale whereby players of varying skill will reach this intersection at varying points. Remember, as you increase your haste rating three things happen. Your Damage over Time spells and Mind blast have a shorter duration/cast time, your channeled ability (Mindflay) becomes shorter, and your Global CoolDown (or GCD) lowers. As each of these three conditions change, you, as the player, must also change. You need to react faster, being more aware of your timers, and be ready to recast abilities sooner, and sooner. For some players, this may not happen until they reach the GCD thresh hold (the point at which spell casters can no longer reduce their GCD...this), which is 1.0 seconds. Some players will reach this point well before that. This is something that only the individual player can determine, and is something that should be constantly tested.
There is also the matter of dps downtime as a result of excess haste. As I said before, and has been stated for some time, the GCD cap for a spell caster is 1.0 seconds. This is a problem that is more or less exclusive to Shadow priests and Balance Druids.
Vampiric Touch, and Mind Blast have a base ( or non-haste modified) cast time of 1.5 seconds. Your GCD is baseline (non-haste modified) at 1.5 seconds. As you increase your haste through items and gems, your VT cast time, and duration begine to decrease, this applies also to Mind Blast. Your GCD also begins decrease. The problem at high haste/gear levels lies in the ability for spells, and not the GCD to continue to cast faster even when the GCD can no longer be hastened. At this point, you will find yourself with dead time. This dead time, over the course of a fight, can be rather detrimental to your performance. There is nothing that can be done about this. Once you reach 1.0 second GCD, you are NO LONGER ABLE to increase your cast frequency. As many Shadow priests who use Engineering are beginning to learn, once you reach around 1200 haste (this is not a far fetched number.. in less than 50% heroic gear I all ready have 1204 haste), activating hyper-speed accelerators brings your VT/MB to around .90-.83 seconds...dependent on the actual level of haste from gear/gems you all ready have. Consider that Hyper speed accelerators provide 340 haste (or approx 10.5%). Bloodlust provides 30% as a comparison. The question I have been trying to flesh out is whether the benefits to DoT's outweighs the loss of cast activity caused by going under GCD cap every 60 seconds + the 45 seconds of Bloodlust.
Edit: As "the not so evil" pointed out in the post below, Lag will play staggering role in how haste affects your dps gains from haste. This is something that can not be prevented, and will always have a detrimental affect. While it is possible to mitigate minor latency changes, such with cast bar mods like Quartz+MF2 which can provide a buffer zone (the red section in the cast bar that changes) for spell queuing and MF ticks. At the end of the day, if you are player who consistently has lag spikes, or generally high latency, your "intersection" is most likely to be markedly lower than a player of equivalent gear/skill with a lower latency. When testing your haste value in this fashion, always consider things in your game environment that will directly impact your ability to smoothly and quickly cast spells. The ability to maintain a high "activity" percentage is a cornerstone of good dpsing.
While your statements here are fairly true, I think you're looking at this in a bit different then Muqq/Izo/etc. Most of the discussion that occurs on this topic is mostly to do with optimal playing. In every theorycrafting scenario haste will improve your DPS even over the 1640 mark. The main problem/discussion point past that concerns MF Vs. MB and generally depends on the player at this point.
Regarding cooldowns, there is a point where just outright popping everything is going to hurt you more then help you, you are right about that. The common theme with said cooldowns is to stagger them out. You and I are trolls for example, on a fight like Festergut we could stagger our Haste CDs to Bloodlust -> Berserking -> EngiGloves -> Potion. The only wildcard there would be Black Magic (which even if it procs during other cooldowns, it would still technically be a DPS increase).
I do agree with the basic point that the player makes the gear, and the player is going to have to adjust himself accordingly. However, given numbers alone Haste (as it is right now) is always going to be a DPS increase stat versus other possible choices.
Bowchikabow, in a perfect scenario a haste cap is reached when the main nuke reachs 1sec cast time. Since you only have that during bloodlust, you can continue to gather haste until you reach that 1sec MF outside of bloodlust, which takes more haste than current possible on gear.
Something different, I was TogC25 last week on icehowl (the big yeti thing if the name isnt correct), with all dots up, mind blasting here and there because I was missing refreshment but I didnt get the buff. Same thing for the retribution paladin we had with us. I havent heard about a bug with that yet. Anyone of you know more?
Something different, I was TogC25 last week on icehowl (the big yeti thing if the name isnt correct), with all dots up, mind blasting here and there because I was missing refreshment but I didnt get the buff. Same thing for the retribution paladin we had with us. I havent heard about a bug with that yet. Anyone of you know more?
Replenishment buffs the 10 raiders with the lowest mana pool percentage. If there were 10 other people with less mana than you (by percent of their whole mana bar), then you wouldn't get the buff.
Replenishment buffs the 10 raiders with the lowest mana pool percentage. If there were 10 other people with less mana than you (by percent of their whole mana bar), then you wouldn't get the buff.
This is almost correct but there is a caveat. Namely, that it won't try to select someone who already has a Replenishment buff from someone other than yourself.
i.e. If Player A has the lowest percentage of mana but they already have a Replenishment buff from say Paladin B then Priest C's Replenishment won't choose Player A to give Replenishment to. It will instead check the next lowest etc.
Exactly. And to make this even more strange, I had replenishment at the other 2 bosses before, but none at icehowl. Something I didnt observe in any other 25man raid before. I try to get there this ID again and grab webstats to confirm whats going on.
Bowchikabow, in a perfect scenario a haste cap is reached when the main nuke reachs 1sec cast time. Since you only have that during bloodlust, you can continue to gather haste until you reach that 1sec MF outside of bloodlust, which takes more haste than current possible on gear.
Depends almost completely on the brain and server lag of the player.
Haste pulls ahead the lower latency and the better you are at clipping and keeping dot uptime.
But yes, if you're considered a stable player who knows your game and have a decent connection getting haste will be a dps increase all the way to 1sec mind flay w/o bloodlust compared to crit since VT/DP scales very very well with haste aswell.
I believe crit doesn't pull ahead until 1600~ unbuffed haste rating with a 50/50 (server/brain) latency setting in rawr with BiS setup. It can be argued with but I for example is going for dfo/cts and the normal sp/haste in yellows etc to reach the maximum amount of haste.
I don't want to sound argumentative, however. Despite the paper math that indicates increasing haste to be the best increase in dps, an armory check of the top 50 US priests recorded on WoL are utilizing +/- 1200 haste, with many barely being in 1100 range. These are the people who are topping world charts against others of their class spec....consistently. These are also players who are sitting on their Best in Slot gear, or near enough that what pieces they have yet to obtain will not drastically alter their current dps. This tells me that if haste being the answer is based on the math, maybe the math being done is being wrongly interpreted.
As is said often: "The numbers don't lie". In this case, the numbers appear to be saying "someone missed something". I will be honest, I don't know specifically what that might be.
In my previous post I agreed with Izo in that there is no attainable haste cap, from a strictly numbers standpoint. My contention is that individually, the player must constantly evaluate the benefit they are getting from haste, and to understand that they will likely not see their best numbers by simply getting closer and closer to the GCD cap.
I am very curious to know how it is that the numbers we are getting from simulations do not, at the higher levels, match actual numbers?
I am very curious to know how it is that the numbers we are getting from simulations do not, at the higher levels, match actual numbers?
I believe the answer is that people have much worse latency and reaction time than they suspect. Allow me to tell a short story...
My guild has two really solid shadow priests, myself and Risocko. Risocko has slightly better gear than me, but I noticed that on the tank-and-spank fights, he did better damage than could be explained by the gear difference alone. Skada said he was doing slightly more damage than me on Vampiric Touch and Devouring Plague, and a good deal more with Mind Flays.
Obviously I'm unwilling to perform sub-optimally, so I looked at the World of Logs parse. He wasn't getting Power Infusions or Tricks of the Trade and we were both using potions as appropriate (including using pre-pull potions). Eventually I opened up the combat log browser to look at the exact time stamps of our DoT refreshes and Mind Flay ticks.
Basically what I found was that whenever I cast a Mind Flay, I was consistently 150 ms too late in casting the next spell. I have 100ms of latency to my server, but when I watched my habitual cast sequence in the next raid, I could tell the problem was me. I had trained myself to start the key press (physically touch the key) at the moment I wanted the ability to get sent to the server, but it took a fraction of a second to actually finish pressing the key.
This effectively turned a 1.8s mind flay into a 1.95s mind flay, which costs 8% of its damage. It's even worse during Bloodlust, when it turns a 1.2s mind flay into 1.35s, reducing mind flay damage by 11%. Vampiric Touch and Devouring Plague also ticked less because they were getting refreshed later. This easily accounted for a 5% drop in damage, all from being a few milliseconds too late.
In the end, I've started pressing my buttons around 250ms before the Mind Flay cast bar gets in the red latency bar displayed by Gnosis (or Quartz for those of you who haven't switched yet). This is often 400ms before the official end time of Mind Flay. I'm still learning just how aggressive I can be and not lose ticks, but my damage has improved such that I'm generally competitive with Risocko, and the player who deals the most damage is determined by random elements of the fight. (For example, whether the slime pools near you get triggered on Rotface.)
I find if you're using MSBT, it's best to turn off spam throttle, or whatever it's called. This means I get real time feedback on whether I'm clipping dots or not, which is the best way to improve timing.
To reduce spam, set threshold such that SW:P ticks aren't shown.
I don't want to sound argumentative, however. Despite the paper math that indicates increasing haste to be the best increase in dps, an armory check of the top 50 US priests recorded on WoL are utilizing +/- 1200 haste, with many barely being in 1100 range. These are the people who are topping world charts against others of their class spec....consistently. These are also players who are sitting on their Best in Slot gear, or near enough that what pieces they have yet to obtain will not drastically alter their current dps. This tells me that if haste being the answer is based on the math, maybe the math being done is being wrongly interpreted.
As is said often: "The numbers don't lie". In this case, the numbers appear to be saying "someone missed something". I will be honest, I don't know specifically what that might be.
In my previous post I agreed with Izo in that there is no attainable haste cap, from a strictly numbers standpoint. My contention is that individually, the player must constantly evaluate the benefit they are getting from haste, and to understand that they will likely not see their best numbers by simply getting closer and closer to the GCD cap.
I am very curious to know how it is that the numbers we are getting from simulations do not, at the higher levels, match actual numbers?
shadow priest leaderboard for Festergut 25man Heroic.
You'll have to be enlightened of the fact that the good shadowpriests do not get buffs such as PI nor Tricks, if you view the shadowpriests record you also notice that they do not have WoL #1 ranked warrior pulling out 20k on Festergut nor do their mages pull ahead which in my opinion, means something is very wrong.
If you go to our guild logs on WoL, you'll see that Ryts (My fellow shadowpriest, I'm pretty low on gear atm, still rolling with RotU) is pulling out numbers far bigger compared to gear and buff diffrence than you could calculate from the people you'll most likely find in the top50. We do not get PI, we do not get Tricks, we do not get FM but we still perform accordingly, you can also account to the fact that like I mentioned in my previous post, the value of haste is very brain/server latency related due to the clipping and dot uptime.
Very few shadowpriests still clip, why? It's not as much of a dps gain as it was in Ulduar, it doesn't net you more than a few hundred anymore.
There's many factors involved, most "top" shadowpriests I've seen thus far use a nochannel macro and just spam away because their server latency is 10 but their brain is immensely slow regarding multitasking keeping track of the surrounding and managing to clip and keep dot uptime perfectly.
I will give you numbers at the end of WotLK when I got my BiS list acquired.
06/16/10, 4:31 PM
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