Elitist Jerks On the Value of Haste

02/17/10, 12:23 PM   #46
kamaia
Glass Joe

Troll Priest

Jaedenar
 Originally Posted by The Not So Evil Overhealing as long as you do not go OOM is not harmful, which means knowing overhealing is not that vital. ... The Custom Role is designed to let you know how to improve your Throughput and Sustainability given a specific fight you found challenging. Since we all know the game is highly random based, every fight will not end up being exactly the same, so I did try to avoid having you be too detailed.
While I agree, "Overhealing as long as you do not go OOM is not harmful," your conclusion that "knowing overhealing is not that vital," does not follow. Overhealing reduces the effectiveness of spellpower, so if you're trying to decide how to itemize, knowing your overhealing rate is vital. Consider the limit of very high spellpower. If every FH you cast heals for 100k, then getting enough spellpower to bump that up to 101k wouldn't make any difference in your throughput at all. This is a problem with Rawr, and indeed most healing theory crafting, that it tends to make the rather unrealistic assumption that you have an unlimited bucket of health to heal into.

 02/17/10, 2:24 PM #47 The Not So Evil Piston Honda     Brundtland Night Elf Priest   Trollbane (EU) However problematic you think theorycrafting assumption about unlimited bucket of health is, your assumption is equally problematic. Right now no healer can fill up a tank with 1 heal. Thus there is possibility for more extra bonus healing to have its effect. You can't fight a non-extreme with an extreme. Rawr - Coder of HolyPriest (Healer) and ShadowPriest (DPS) Modules. Get Your Rawr 2.3.x!
02/24/10, 1:30 PM   #48
kamaia
Glass Joe

Troll Priest

Jaedenar
 Originally Posted by The Not So Evil However problematic you think theorycrafting assumption about unlimited bucket of health is, your assumption is equally problematic. Right now no healer can fill up a tank with 1 heal. Thus there is possibility for more extra bonus healing to have its effect. You can't fight a non-extreme with an extreme.
Obviously not 100% of heals cast result in an overheal. I used the extreme example only to illustrate the problem with the assumption, not because I considered it a realistic situation. From my empirical observation, at least in ICC-10, the number is closer to 50%. I would welcome anyone else who can provided numbers to do so, since there are obviously methodological issues with mine, but it's the best I have at the moment. Note that the key number here is the percent of heals that result in an overheal (however small) and not the percent of overhealing.

With the no-overhealing assumption you are over-estimating the value of spellpower considerably. I'm not sure how much of a code change it would require, but it would be very nice if Rawr had a parameter like this.

 02/25/10, 11:26 AM #49 The Not So Evil Piston Honda     Brundtland Night Elf Priest   Trollbane (EU) No matter how we deal with this we're going to end down the path of Heal and Damage granularity, which I want to avoid because there are too many variables to deal with it. The reason I find that Haste and Crit is *less* worth than Spell Power even in your scenario with 50% overheal, is that this extra Haste may just cause another healer (who earlier landed the heal in front of you causing your overheal) to overheal. And when it all comes down to individual stats, its Regen stats (Int/Spi/MP5) vs Throughput stats (SP/Hst/Crt). If you can sustain your current healing, more Regen stats is not needed. Crit is generally unreliable, which can be an issue. That leaves us with Haste and SP. More haste can lead to less overhealing or more overhealing, but it is a way to make sure you land a heal faster. SPP makes your heals hit harder. So what is the value of haste? (This is where I let the reader realize that it has to be up to ones individual style to make this final decision.) Rawr - Coder of HolyPriest (Healer) and ShadowPriest (DPS) Modules. Get Your Rawr 2.3.x!
02/25/10, 7:15 PM   #50
Glowyrm
Glass Joe

Tortheldrin
 Originally Posted by Elimbras I really don't like the kind of argument saying "Haste increases the number of heals you cast, therefore your holy concentration uptime". Technically, this is really true. But the effect is marginal, and people shall not count on it. If you want to increase your holy concentration uptime, you gear for crit, and/or you change your spells selections (with short spells that can trigger it). You don't gem for haste. The gain in holy concentration uptime is far from the loss of the increased number of cast. Just for a quick numerical evaluation : HC is an 8s buff that procs after any crit. I'll take the best situation for haste : the charater currently has no haste, 30% crit, and can choose between 10% haste and 10% crit. He maintains a cycle of 1 POM - 1 COH - Renew - Renew - SOL-FH, that takes roughly 8s (including lag). In 8s, 2 spells can triggers HC. The current downtime is 0.7^2 = 0.49. Uptime is 51%. With 10% more crit, downtime is 0.6^2 = 0.36. Uptime is 64%. The gain is 13% uptime. With 10% haste, the character can know cast 2.2 HC-friendly spells per 8s. Downtime is 0.7^2.2=0.456. Uptime is 54.4%. The gain is 3.4% uptime for 10% haste, in a really favorable scenario.
I'm not sure but I think I see something wrong with this. You can't apply the 10% haste to the amount of spells you cast but you have to apply it to the GCD and casting times then look at how many spells you can cast.

The problem is casting 2 HC procing spells in 8 seconds with 0 haste and then only casting 2.2 with 10% haste.

If you have 0 haste your GCD is 1.5. Let's say you cast a cycle of PoM, CoH, Renew, Renew, Flash Heal. It takes about 8 seconds to spam those 5 spells. (With your cycle, it should only take about 6 seconds since the last spell is instant, even with some lag)

If you gain 10% haste, your GCD is now 1.36. In that same 8 second window, you can cast 5.9 spells, we'll say 6 spells though since it really takes slightly less than a full 8 seconds to cast the original 5 spell cycle.

Adding 10% haste allowed a whole extra spell to be cast in the same window of time.

So adding 10% haste really should look like .7^3 = 0.343 or 34.3% downtime and a 65.7% uptime. That is a 14.7% increase over 0 haste.

If I'm completely off let me know, maybe you could do a few more examples and explain your math more in depth for me?

Last edited by Glowyrm : 02/25/10 at 7:25 PM.

 02/25/10, 8:15 PM #51 gillisthom Glass Joe   Dessá Draenei Priest   Talnivarr (EU) "softcap" Actually there is no softcap for disc priest, atm I have over 700 haste and after casting PWS GCD is reduced below 1.0 sec. Even with 700+ haste and using engineering glove enchant my FHs are 0.8s and still slightly slower than the GCD. I believe that at hard cap, 1180 haste (36% from gear), it will be at 0.75 sec. It seems even thought the tooltip says spellhaste the mechanics are the same as PI or Heroism/Bloodlust.
02/25/10, 9:30 PM   #52
Glowyrm
Glass Joe

Tortheldrin
 Originally Posted by gillisthom Actually there is no softcap for disc priest, atm I have over 700 haste and after casting PWS GCD is reduced below 1.0 sec. Even with 700+ haste and using engineering glove enchant my FHs are 0.8s and still slightly slower than the GCD. I believe that at hard cap, 1180 haste (36% from gear), it will be at 0.75 sec. It seems even thought the tooltip says spellhaste the mechanics are the same as PI or Heroism/Bloodlust.
There is a limit on the GCD and that is 1 second.

Whatever you are seeing, either you're looking at it wrong or there is latency issues.

02/26/10, 9:49 AM   #53
Elimbras
Don Flamenco

Dwarf Priest

Eitrigg (EU)
 Originally Posted by Glowyrm I'm not sure but I think I see something wrong with this. You can't apply the 10% haste to the amount of spells you cast but you have to apply it to the GCD and casting times then look at how many spells you can cast. [...] If you have 0 haste your GCD is 1.5. Let's say you cast a cycle of PoM, CoH, Renew, Renew, Flash Heal. It takes about 8 seconds to spam those 5 spells. (With your cycle, it should only take about 6 seconds since the last spell is instant, even with some lag)
That's a minor point, but even for an instant, you need to take the GCD into account. You will be locked for that time, and even if your last SOL heal occurs a T=6s, the next sequence will starts at T=7.5s (or T=8s with some lag).

 If you gain 10% haste, your GCD is now 1.36. In that same 8 second window, you can cast 5.9 spells, we'll say 6 spells though since it really takes slightly less than a full 8 seconds to cast the original 5 spell cycle. Adding 10% haste allowed a whole extra spell to be cast in the same window of time.
In fact, we're back into granularity questions, and cycle changes. These are tricky point with haste, and there are no real proper way to handle them in a general case.
You could well argue that you would use your cycle with 10% haste.
You could also argue that with 10% haste, my previous cycle requires 6.81s, and including lag, it will be more that 7s, and you will keep the same cycle. Then in an arbitrary 8s interval, you'll have in mean really 2.2 HC-friendly casts.

I think that if you want to treat it correctly, but in a general way, the following approach would be the correct one :
1/ Determine which frequence you use PoM / COH (can be 7s at best). That leads to a cycle length T, which should not really depend on your haste.
2/ Determine how many cast you can squeeze in that period : you get a real value N = T * (1+haste) / 1.5
3/ Consider that 2 cast at least are POM and COH, so you get at most T*(1+haste)/1.5 - 2 HC-friendly cast.
4/ Take into account your SOL casts : either with a fixed number A of cast, or with a proportion B of free casts.
5/ Your final number of HC-friendly cast is then either K=T*(1+haste)/1.5 - (2+A), or K = (1-B)*[T*(1+haste)/1.5 - 2]
6/ In 8s, you get in mean K*8.0/T HC-friendly cast.

If you want it rigorously, you need to get rid of real cast number, and consider the probability Pn of having cast exactly N HC-friendly spells in the last 8s, where the current time is taken uniformly in the cycle.
For example, assuming a 7.5s with COH - POM - SOL - Renew - Renew (and 0% haste)
my mean number of HC-spells in 8s is 2 / 7.5*8 = 2.13.
But if I consider t in [0-4.5] or in [5-6] or in [6.5-7.5], I have exactly 2 Renew cast in the last 8s before T. That's a probability p2 = 6.5/7.5= 0.866
If t is in [4.5 - 5] or [6 - 6.5], I have 3 Renew in the last 8s. Probability p3 is then p3 = 1/7.5 = 0.13333.
Note that we have exactly 2 * p2 + 3 * p3 = 2.1333, as it shall be.

Now, you can have precise HC uptime, with is
$HC_{Uptime}= 1 - HC_{Downtime} = 1 - \sum_{n=0}^\infty P_n * (1 - \%_{Crit})^{n}$
But that's the kind of thing that are not really sexy to compute, and change in weird ways with haste.
Due to the convexity of x -> a^x function, the approximation HC ~ 1 - (1-Crit)^Mean is not exact, but it is not too far.

 02/26/10, 5:57 PM #54 kamaia Glass Joe   kamaia Troll Priest   Jaedenar To investigate the effect of both haste and crit on Holy Concentration uptime, I decided to run a monte-carlo analysis. I assumed the rotation outlined above (ProM-CoH-Renew-Renew-FH) and calculated the uptime for a simulated five minute fight with zero haste. I ran thirty thousand simulation runs for each crit value and plotted the median and 90% confidence interval. The results are plotted below. I then repeated the analysis with 25% haste. The mean uptime value was nearly identical -- within the width of the line on one plot so not shown overlapping. The only noticeable effect was that the confidence interval narrowed slightly. This means that on the fights where you get very lucky or very unlucky with crit procs, haste will move HC uptime closer to the mean. I can say with a fair degree of confidence that haste does not affect HC uptime in any meaningful way. I confirmed that the same is true for inspiration using a discipline rotation. I suspect that this true for any similar ability. ---- Edit: I replaced the word "mean" with "median," since that is what is actually plotted. I changed "95% confidence bounds" to "90%." The three lines corespond to the 5th, 50th, and 95th percentile of uptimes from the simulation runs. Thus the uptime you see in a given fight should fall between the top- and bottom-most lines 90% of the time. Last edited by kamaia : 02/26/10 at 6:58 PM.
 03/18/10, 1:12 PM #55 jdh79 Piston Honda   Tiberria Draenei Paladin   Stormrage One of the things that I think has to be considered in considering the value of haste is the impact of lag/latency/reaction time, especially for holy priests. For most people and most servers, I would be surprised if there was less than an average 200 ms combination of latency/server side lag/reaction time. That means that with 0% haste, you would not be able to fit in 3 renews between CoH cooldowns, since the time lost makes the effective GCD more like 1.7 seconds. Assuming 200 ms, you would need around 20% raid buffed haste (requires about 400 haste rating from gear + standard raid buffs) to be able to fit in a 3rd instant cast between CoH cooldowns. To get a 4th cast in, you would likely need to be close to the soft haste cap and close to 1100 haste from gear. I question the value of stacking haste past about 400-500 when you are using a instant cast heavy renew-CoH-PoM playstayle. Obviously, if you are using a lot of FH and PoH, it becomes more valuable, but for the instant cast playstyle, it seems like there is little benefit to stacking haste that doesn't get you an extra spell cast. Once you can hit the threshold to be able to get that 4th instant cast in, obviously it becomes much more valuable. However, until I have access to almost all of the 264+ haste/spirit pieces (and only 2 T10 items have haste on them unfortunately), I don't think it makes sense for me to gem pure haste or pass on spirit/crit items that are a SP upgrade. Another factor is, if you are in a 25 man raid environment where replenishment uptime isn't always optimal (i.e. often 0-1 replenishers in a 25 man raid), would that not decrease the value of haste since it will lead to mana issues? Right now, it seems that only ret pallies are the only remaining 100% reliable replenishers. End game hunters typically do not run SV anymore, apparently destro locks take a huge DPS hit from speccing for replenishment, and there seems to be a trend for shadow priests with T10 4 pc to ignore replenishment uptime, since maintaining it reduces DPS.
03/19/10, 7:27 AM   #56
Pasch
Glass Joe

Draenei Priest

Silvermoon (EU)
 Originally Posted by jdh79 and there seems to be a trend for shadow priests with T10 4 pc to ignore replenishment uptime, since maintaining it reduces DPS.
Only during heroism/PI.

 04/01/10, 4:07 AM #57 Rubytrix Glass Joe   Arcsin Blood Elf Priest   Darkspear Overhealing Rates Since no one else bothered to do it, I parsed the ICC10 log file mentioned above for rates of overhealing. That is, fraction of spells cast that result in overhealing. Looks like our disco buddy (Baptistine) had over healing rates around 50%, depending on the spell. But they ranged wildly from 8% for Greater Heal (how in the world?) to 93% for Holy Nova. 38% for CoH in Holy mode, 64% for Penance. I don't know if I trust these numbers, as this is my first time digging around in the combat logs like this. GH should have a high Overheal%, but maybe it was only used on a fight with a particular mechanic. The other holy priest (Khunanya) had >90% overhealing rate on his GH's though. For penance, you'd expect with 64% OH% that the second tick must have OH'd and the third tick would be useless, but the snipe rate for that is only 2%, i.e. only 2% of his penance dots did nothing, rather than the 33% expected. So perhaps there was a lot of damage in between ticks; I'm not sure. Perl implementation started from the above snippet. I broke this down per/healer and per/spell for completeness. #!/usr/bin/perl use warnings; use strict; my $char = '"Swampdonky"'; # Character to analyze (use quotes) #my$char = '"Baptistine"'; # Character to analyze (use quotes) my %HEALS = (); my ($heal,$overheal, $crit,$overcrit) = (0, 0, 0, 0); my ($heal_count,$overheal_count, $crit_count,$overcrit_count) = (0, 0, 0, 0); while () { next unless /SPELL_HEAL/; my @event = split /,/; #next unless $event[2] eq$char; my $toon =$event[2]; my $spell =$event[ 8]; my $heal =$event[10]; my $over =$event[11]; my $is_crit = ($event[13] !~ /nil/); $toon =~ s/"//g;$spell =~ s/"//g; if ( not exists $HEALS{$toon}{$spell} ) {$HEALS{$toon}{$spell} = { crit=>{ count=>0, size=>0, over_size=>0, over_count=>0, bad_size=>0, bad_count=>0 }, heal=>{ count=>0, size=>0, over_size=>0, over_count=>0, bad_size=>0, bad_count=>0 }, }; } my $data; if ($is_crit ) { $data =$HEALS{$toon}{$spell}{'crit'} } else { $data =$HEALS{$toon}{$spell}{'heal'} } $data->{'count'}++;$data->{'size' } += $heal; if ($over > 0 ) { $data->{'over_size' } +=$over; $data->{'over_count'}++; } if ($heal == 0 ) { $data->{'bad_size' } +=$over; $data->{'bad_count'}++; } } printf "%-30s %-30s %10s %10s %10s | %10s %10s %10s | %10s %10s %10s | %10s %10s %10s\n", "Toon", "Spell", "Count", "RawHeals", "TotalHeals", "CritRate", "CritFrac", "SnipedRate", "ORate", "OHealRate", "OCritRate", "OFrac", "OHealFrac", "OCritFrac", ; foreach my$toon ( sort keys %HEALS ) { next if scalar keys %{$HEALS{$toon}} < 4; foreach my $spell ( sort keys %{$HEALS{$toon}} ) { my$heal = $HEALS{$toon}{$spell}{'heal'}; my$crit = $HEALS{$toon}{$spell}{'crit'}; my$total_count = $heal->{'count'} +$crit->{'count'}; my $total_heal_size =$crit->{'size'} + $heal->{'size'}; my$total_over_size = $crit->{'over_size'} +$heal->{'over_size'}; my $total_size =$total_heal_size + $total_over_size; printf "%-30s %-30s %10u %9uk %9uk | %9.0f%% %9.0f%% %9.0f%% | %9.0f%% %9.0f%% %9.0f%% | %9.0f%% %9.0f%% %9.0f%%\n",$toon, substr($spell, 0, 30),$total_count, $total_heal_size / 1000,$total_size / 1000, $crit->{'count'} /$total_count * 100, $crit->{'size' } /$total_size * 100, ($crit->{'bad_count'} +$heal->{'bad_count'}) / $total_count * 100, ($heal->{'over_count'} + $crit->{'over_count'}) /$total_count * 100, $heal->{'over_count'} / ($heal->{'count'}||1) * 100, $crit->{'over_count'} / ($crit->{'count'}||1) * 100, ($heal->{'over_size' } +$crit->{'over_size' }) / $total_size * 100,$heal->{'over_size' } / (($heal->{'size'}+$heal->{'over_size'})||1) * 100, $crit->{'over_size' } / (($crit->{'size'}+\$crit->{'over_size'})||1) * 100, ; } } Toon: Who cast it Spell: Spell cast Count: Number of times cast RawHeals: Real healing accomplished (i.e. excluding overheals) TotalHeals: Total healing, including overheals CritRate: % of casts resulting in crits CritFrac: % of real healing resulting from crits SnipedRate: % of casts resulting in 0 real healing (i.e. too slow or wrong target) ORate: % of casts resulting in overhealing OHealRate: % of non-crits resulting in overhealing OCritRate: % of crits resulting in overhealing OFrac: % of total that is overhealing OHealFrac: % of non-crit subtotal that is overhealing OCritFrac: % of crit subtotal that is overhealing Toon Spell Count RawHeals TotalHeals | CritRate CritFrac SnipedRate | ORate OHealRate OCritRate | OFrac OHealFrac OCritFrac Adrianromero Death Coil 9 60k 89k | 0% 0% 0% | 67% 67% 0% | 33% 33% 0% Adrianromero Drain Life 21 31k 36k | 0% 0% 0% | 24% 24% 0% | 14% 14% 0% Adrianromero Fel Synergy 891 436k 763k | 0% 0% 0% | 64% 64% 0% | 43% 43% 0% Adrianromero Master Healthstone 2 8k 8k | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% Adrianromero Siphon Life 1785 3200k 5619k | 0% 0% 0% | 81% 81% 0% | 43% 43% 0% Baptistine Binding Heal 18 136k 182k | 72% 59% 6% | 44% 40% 46% | 25% 28% 24% Baptistine Circle of Healing 167 916k 1201k | 29% 31% 0% | 38% 32% 53% | 24% 21% 28% Baptistine Desperate Prayer 8 83k 93k | 50% 55% 0% | 38% 25% 50% | 11% 20% 5% Baptistine Divine Hymn 30 253k 327k | 40% 40% 0% | 67% 61% 75% | 23% 23% 22% Baptistine Empowered Renew 110 375k 418k | 35% 43% 0% | 19% 19% 18% | 10% 11% 9% Baptistine Flash Heal 2302 18804k 26917k | 44% 36% 1% | 58% 51% 67% | 30% 26% 34% Baptistine Glyph of Power Word: Shield 1124 2369k 3315k | 43% 39% 0% | 44% 41% 48% | 29% 27% 30% Baptistine Greater Heal 168 3705k 3886k | 32% 36% 0% | 8% 9% 7% | 5% 5% 5% Baptistine Holy Nova 123 376k 720k | 41% 27% 0% | 93% 96% 90% | 48% 48% 47% Baptistine Leeching Swarm 65 87k 87k | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% Baptistine Penance 782 3959k 6311k | 44% 34% 2% | 64% 62% 66% | 37% 37% 38% Baptistine Prayer of Healing 205 1084k 1608k | 44% 37% 0% | 58% 54% 64% | 33% 30% 35% Baptistine Prayer of Mending 892 5227k 6950k | 40% 39% 0% | 51% 46% 59% | 25% 21% 28% Baptistine Spirit of Redemption 8 0k 0k | 25% 33% 0% | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% Cassharn Ardent Defender 4 50k 50k | 25% 31% 0% | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% Cassharn Holy Light 5 36k 38k | 0% 0% 0% | 40% 40% 0% | 4% 4% 0% Cassharn Lay on Hands 3 187k 187k | 33% 27% 0% | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% Cassharn Leeching Swarm 65 96k 96k | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% Cassharn Master Healthstone 1 4k 4k | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% Cassharn Seal of Light 118 91k 139k | 0% 0% 0% | 54% 54% 0% | 34% 34% 0% Darklawlz Ancestral Awakening 8 16k 22k | 0% 0% 0% | 38% 38% 0% | 23% 23% 0% Darklawlz Chain Heal 116 691k 1107k | 34% 26% 0% | 68% 66% 72% | 38% 35% 41% Darklawlz Earth Shield 26 122k 187k | 31% 30% 0% | 62% 67% 50% | 34% 38% 30% Darklawlz Lesser Healing Wave 6 45k 76k | 50% 34% 0% | 83% 100% 67% | 41% 50% 31% Darklawlz Riptide 13 56k 74k | 38% 36% 0% | 46% 38% 60% | 25% 24% 26% Famous Beacon of Light 14 99k 180k | 0% 0% 0% | 86% 86% 0% | 45% 45% 0% Famous Flash of Light 65 415k 612k | 43% 36% 0% | 58% 49% 71% | 32% 30% 34% Famous Glyph of Holy Light 10 15k 22k | 0% 0% 0% | 50% 50% 0% | 33% 33% 0% Famous Holy Light 5 84k 149k | 60% 38% 0% | 100% 100% 100% | 44% 48% 42% Famous Holy Shock 26 196k 279k | 42% 37% 0% | 58% 60% 55% | 30% 30% 30% Kahoo Death Coil 1 6k 6k | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% Kahoo Fel Synergy 681 631k 1226k | 0% 0% 0% | 95% 95% 0% | 49% 49% 0% Kahoo Leeching Swarm 65 89k 89k | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% Kahoo Soul Leech 65 147k 272k | 0% 0% 0% | 89% 89% 0% | 46% 46% 0% Khunanya Binding Heal 2 7k 7k | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% Khunanya Circle of Healing 432 1560k 2365k | 27% 24% 0% | 62% 60% 69% | 34% 33% 35% Khunanya Desperate Prayer 1 6k 6k | 100% 100% 0% | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% Khunanya Devouring Plague 38 5k 10k | 0% 0% 0% | 82% 82% 0% | 45% 45% 0% Khunanya Empowered Renew 235 488k 670k | 28% 27% 0% | 39% 36% 47% | 27% 25% 31% Khunanya Flash Heal 59 410k 603k | 10% 10% 0% | 64% 60% 100% | 32% 29% 44% Khunanya Greater Heal 16 235k 416k | 31% 24% 0% | 94% 91% 100% | 43% 45% 42% Khunanya Holy Nova 8 23k 37k | 12% 11% 0% | 62% 57% 100% | 38% 34% 50% Khunanya Leeching Swarm 65 88k 88k | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% Khunanya Prayer of Healing 5 27k 53k | 20% 14% 0% | 100% 100% 100% | 48% 47% 50% Khunanya Prayer of Mending 111 784k 1064k | 31% 30% 0% | 53% 45% 71% | 26% 22% 32% Ladsexington Lifebloom 47 227k 438k | 19% 13% 0% | 94% 92% 100% | 48% 48% 48% Ladsexington Living Seed 2 5k 8k | 0% 0% 0% | 50% 50% 0% | 34% 34% 0% Ladsexington Regrowth 19 130k 216k | 53% 37% 0% | 79% 78% 80% | 40% 40% 40% Ladsexington Swiftmend 8 97k 133k | 38% 35% 0% | 75% 60% 100% | 27% 28% 25% Lessa Leeching Swarm 65 72k 72k | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% Lessa Lifebloom 102 434k 816k | 15% 9% 0% | 95% 95% 93% | 47% 47% 45% Lessa Living Seed 52 137k 178k | 0% 0% 0% | 48% 48% 0% | 23% 23% 0% Lessa Nourish 159 1227k 2057k | 67% 44% 1% | 81% 79% 81% | 40% 38% 41% Lessa Regrowth 73 492k 850k | 60% 40% 3% | 81% 76% 84% | 42% 43% 42% Lessa Tranquility 34 220k 392k | 0% 0% 0% | 88% 88% 0% | 44% 44% 0% Mirilyn Death Coil 1 2k 4k | 0% 0% 0% | 100% 100% 0% | 50% 50% 0% Mirilyn Fel Synergy 497 305k 557k | 0% 0% 0% | 83% 83% 0% | 45% 45% 0% Mirilyn Leeching Swarm 65 81k 81k | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% Mirilyn Master Healthstone 1 6k 12k | 100% 57% 0% | 100% 0% 100% | 43% 0% 43% Mirilyn Soul Leech 137 236k 409k | 0% 0% 0% | 75% 75% 0% | 42% 42% 0% Nassah Healing Touch 9 190k 222k | 22% 33% 0% | 33% 43% 0% | 15% 22% 0% Nassah Lifebloom 245 1501k 2376k | 13% 9% 0% | 70% 65% 100% | 37% 34% 48% Nassah Living Seed 200 688k 832k | 0% 0% 0% | 34% 34% 0% | 17% 17% 0% Nassah Master Healthstone 1 4k 4k | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% Nassah Nourish 536 4963k 6119k | 40% 41% 0% | 33% 27% 41% | 19% 16% 22% Nassah Regrowth 218 1492k 2355k | 42% 33% 0% | 66% 60% 73% | 37% 34% 39% Nassah Swiftmend 139 1614k 1882k | 14% 15% 0% | 40% 40% 42% | 14% 15% 13% Reanimated Ancestral Awakening 102 234k 318k | 0% 0% 0% | 42% 42% 0% | 26% 26% 0% Reanimated Chain Heal 1243 8553k 13725k | 43% 33% 0% | 66% 61% 73% | 38% 35% 40% Reanimated Earth Shield 123 535k 618k | 27% 35% 0% | 29% 29% 30% | 13% 17% 9% Reanimated Healing Wave 3 32k 50k | 0% 0% 0% | 67% 67% 0% | 35% 35% 0% Reanimated Leeching Swarm 65 79k 79k | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% Reanimated Lesser Healing Wave 100 706k 1160k | 60% 44% 10% | 70% 60% 77% | 39% 35% 41% Reanimated Riptide 109 474k 743k | 42% 33% 0% | 71% 65% 78% | 36% 35% 38% Semirhagge Death Pact 1 13k 13k | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% Semirhagge Death Strike 1 3k 3k | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% Semirhagge Leeching Swarm 61 83k 83k | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% Semirhagge Unholy Strength 353 397k 665k | 28% 22% 0% | 71% 70% 72% | 40% 40% 40% Themanone Beacon of Light 228 1761k 3132k | 0% 0% 0% | 90% 90% 0% | 44% 44% 0% Themanone Flash of Light 169 900k 1557k | 58% 39% 0% | 84% 73% 92% | 42% 39% 44% Themanone Holy Light 47 717k 1309k | 51% 34% 0% | 94% 96% 92% | 45% 45% 45% Themanone Holy Shock 22 150k 257k | 50% 35% 0% | 91% 91% 91% | 42% 40% 42% Touchmyclam Healing Touch 1 10k 21k | 0% 0% 0% | 100% 100% 0% | 50% 50% 0% Touchmyclam Living Seed 24 60k 80k | 0% 0% 0% | 46% 46% 0% | 25% 25% 0% Touchmyclam Nourish 71 470k 700k | 51% 41% 0% | 58% 46% 69% | 33% 25% 37% Touchmyclam Regrowth 38 233k 399k | 53% 37% 0% | 84% 72% 95% | 41% 41% 42% Utholas Beacon of Light 324 3669k 6664k | 0% 0% 0% | 88% 88% 0% | 45% 45% 0% Utholas Crazy Alchemist's Potion 3 13k 23k | 33% 24% 0% | 100% 100% 100% | 43% 37% 50% Utholas Flash of Light 188 1163k 2072k | 40% 28% 0% | 83% 79% 88% | 44% 42% 46% Utholas Glyph of Holy Light 459 792k 1431k | 0% 0% 0% | 79% 79% 0% | 45% 45% 0% Utholas Holy Light 182 3027k 5562k | 47% 31% 0% | 96% 95% 96% | 46% 45% 46% Utholas Leeching Swarm 52 73k 73k | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% Utholas Rejuvenation Potion 2 9k 12k | 50% 50% 0% | 50% 100% 0% | 25% 50% 0% Utholas Seal of Light 24 21k 38k | 0% 0% 0% | 83% 83% 0% | 45% 45% 0% Xaali Ancestral Awakening 284 1475k 1677k | 0% 0% 0% | 23% 23% 0% | 12% 12% 0% Xaali Chain Heal 798 6010k 9060k | 34% 29% 0% | 68% 61% 80% | 34% 32% 36% Xaali Earth Shield 332 1584k 1944k | 36% 41% 0% | 38% 34% 45% | 19% 17% 20% Xaali Healing Wave 173 3993k 4291k | 33% 39% 0% | 17% 13% 26% | 7% 6% 8% Xaali Lesser Healing Wave 294 2341k 3044k | 52% 48% 0% | 38% 30% 46% | 23% 19% 25% Xaali Riptide 305 1655k 1999k | 27% 31% 0% | 31% 29% 39% | 17% 17% 18% Ãndras Ancestral Awakening 18 36k 44k | 0% 0% 0% | 28% 28% 0% | 17% 17% 0% Ãndras Chain Heal 271 1744k 2881k | 38% 27% 0% | 76% 76% 75% | 39% 39% 40% Ãndras Earth Shield 4 14k 14k | 75% 82% 0% | 0% 0% 0% | 0% 0% 0% Ãndras Lesser Healing Wave 4 28k 56k | 50% 31% 0% | 100% 100% 100% | 50% 50% 50% Ãndras Riptide 35 177k 271k | 46% 37% 0% | 69% 74% 62% | 35% 38% 32%
 04/11/10, 5:16 PM #58 SpaceyX Glass Joe   Lecerena Draenei Priest   Outland (EU) Now that heals have been nerfed in pvp wouldn't haste result in a higher HPS in PVP?
04/11/10, 9:38 PM   #59
syeren
Don Flamenco

Tauren Shaman

Stormscale (EU)
 Originally Posted by SpaceyX Now that heals have been nerfed in pvp wouldn't haste result in a higher HPS in PVP?
That's one of the reasons why good Priests get the haste offset for their PVP gear. Hydra posted a full gear guide and stuff on http://hydramist.net if you're interested in looking into it.

 04/11/10, 11:48 PM #60 moowalk Don Flamenco   Moowalk Troll Priest   Khaz'goroth Good priests don't get crit because so many of their defensive spells can't crit. And their offensive spells that can crit only crit at 1.5x damage before resilience. Priest mana regen is peeling from team mates and drinking. So spellpower and haste are left as a viable stacking stat. Some priests go spell power, some go haste. If you're part of a good team you'll play less of a healing role and more of an offensive/utility role. Haste is probably better for this. Stacking haste has very little to do with the healing nerf in arena, as haste stacking happened long before that change was implemented.

 Elitist Jerks On the Value of Haste