WotLK Healing Compendium v3.3.5: Fun in the Twilight with Halion - Page 10

Hegen · 06/21/10, 8:49 AM

Originally Posted by Amoenitas

I cannot fully agree with that. For many encounters Engineering is the most useful profession for holy priests because it's an extra cooldown for stressful situations (+10% haste for 12s every minute). People rarely die due to constant damage (if they do, the healers are bad).

Well, I did actually consider that even for discipline because I used to be not a pure shield spammer. It's still a topic that is very much controversial. Engineering is a good choice if you feel confident you can (and will) use the haste.

That said, this kind of thing is why I don't plan to have a section in the guide on this. If we put it there, it needs to be complete and accurate. So we need a separate treatment of disc and holy, with probably treating two holy healing styles separately. The we need to consider impact on throughput, efficiency, regen, and suddenly one more day of work is gone, to be replaced by the Cataclysm prepatch real soon now.

Hegen · 06/23/10, 5:48 AM

Some updates:

Compendium 3.3.5 edition

The compendium now has a new trinket section that contains raid buffed stat breakdowns for holy and discipline priests. This is still a work in progress, several relevant trinkets are not yet listed (Solace for example), so I've kept the old content until that is completed.

Also, I have added the very few things that are new with 3.3.5, such as the Halion trinket and the notice that the BiS links are outdated.

Compendium Warning for Cataclysm

From what we already know, the Cataclysm prepatch supplying the new mechanics and talent builds will invalidate almost everything the current Healing Compendium contains. Maybe the structure can remain, as well as some tables (though not their content), but it's more or less a complete rewrite.

This will require an author. As of now, I don't even know if I will be raiding again at that time. While several people already have offered to help, I know it's not going to work. The author of the guide really needs to have substantial experience with the new content in order to spell out what it all means. Looking at numbers is only a small part of the issue, as we all know.

So, please think about whether you could do it. Until beta starts, or Cata prepatch PTR at latest, someone should start the work. Ideally, you have a beta invitation by then (I never had) and can test and experience things first hand. Just make sure you have the time to complete the work - a few hours per week isn't going to do it.

Sgat8516 · 06/25/10, 2:52 AM

Originally Posted by Hegen

Some updates:
Also, I have added the very few things that are new with 3.3.5, such as the Halion trinket and the notice that the BiS links are outdated.

Nice work.
Anyone know if Glowing Twilight Scale will be '1 of each item level unique' or '1 of each item name unique'?

Regen definately has been the furthest thing from my mind for quite some time for Disc (I call it a blue energy bar for casting spells, woot). If 1 of each is possible, I hopefully intend to rock a set of these.
The Heroic version of this, in a scenario like LK25HM Valk pickups, or Frostmourne Room (grouped), this trinket CD is equivelant to 186k healing ouput (211k for Heroic) of On Demand output (and thats if only 1 Hot is allow to tick on a person per second).

Since all of our other healers are still heavily reliant on Regen/Regen or Output/Regen trinkets, this item is pretty low on their priority list, cant wait till HM's are released so can (hopefully) stag one and try it out.

Veldefice · 06/30/10, 1:37 PM

First off, thanks for updating the thread.

I just wanted to make a point about Disc priests on tank healing. Another priest in my guild brought up a good point about not having enough haste to adequately support tank healing (and just strictly tank healing) and so... this is his great idea.

At the time, we were only running with 1 holy paladin and moved onto Sindragosa Heroic. As many of you know... she hits hard and it coupled with a nasty frost breath (that can follow melee hits). Since we were running 3 priests at that time, we thought it would be cool to make a gearset and talent setup just for strict tank healing.

Flash heal? It's a good spell, but nowhere near enough throughput to keep up a tank taking 30k-40k hits. The other alternative was Greater heal. Definitely a spell that not many priests use in raids, but we thought it was needed to get enough... healing done to counteract the huge hits.

For gear... it's mainly wearing a lot of haste pieces... or even "dps" pieces. Crit is obviously great for disc... but haste has its uses too. Spirit isn't quite as important so we decided to wear pieces without it to gain both crit and haste. There was no specific haste goal... but we both have around 980-1000 haste as disc.

We're definitely over the cap for haste, but if all you're doing is chain casting Greater Heal (with the occasional shield/penance on the MT), then it works. Mana is a bit of an issue since you're not utilizing rapture, but good timing on Hymn and fiend should take care of it.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I just thought I would share something that is... not of the norm? Unfortunately, I'm not in my haste gearset atm, but the spec is right (just move points around for 5/5 Divine Fury). Just a crazy idea :p

tedv · 06/30/10, 2:38 PM

I thought it was generally accepted that for both holy and discipline priests, the stat ordering is:

spell power >>> haste > crit > spirit

That doesn't sound any different from what you're suggesting, or am I misunderstanding your point?

MADMark · 06/30/10, 2:52 PM

It sounds like you need another Holy Paladin. Yes, you can turn a disc into a Greater Heal bomber, the issue is that Holy Light accomplishes the job better. If you search for it, there was a comparison of Flash and Greater Heal to other classes spammable cast time heals (I think it was for Valeria in the last Compendium) and unfortunately we came up lacking. Even if you can't get another Pally, Resto Shaman provides more throughput (even taking DA into account) while still offering the damage reduction. PW:S+Penance+GH is great for spikes, but after that, it's just inefficient. You could switch to a deep Holy build to pick up the rest of the GH talents, but mana would probably get worse with all the crit & haste. I'm not saying a Priest can't do it, I just think there are better classes for the job.

Veldefice · 06/30/10, 4:20 PM

Originally Posted by tedv

I thought it was generally accepted that for both holy and discipline priests, the stat ordering is:

spell power >>> haste > crit > spirit

That doesn't sound any different from what you're suggesting, or am I misunderstanding your point?

I was just saying that priests can excel at tank healing with the right gear. Greater heal is a spell most priests don't use... was just seeing how we could use it.

@MADMark: You're definitely right. I think most raid setups need 2 holy paladins for tank healing while other classes can fill in the rest (raid healing and the occasional help on tanks). Honestly, I think paladins are the only class that really outshine priests when it comes to tank healing. Shamans are obviously great, but I just think priests have more tricks to use (shield, Penance, Gheal, renew, PoM vs riptide, healing wave, earthshield, and whatever else).

My Greater Heals with full raid buffs takes 1.6 secs to cast and 1.4 with Borrowed Time (it might actually be faster, like 1.5, but I can't remember off the top of my head). With the occasional Penance and shield, I think priests can keep up tanks pretty well.

We thought about going deep holy... but without Penance and Rapture, mana was bad and Penance is just too good not to have on a single target.

I dunno, this is just something that we've been trying out and it's worked out decently well (especially against bosses that hit like a truck). We've since gotten another holy paladin healer, but maybe another priest could try it out and see how it works for them if they're only running 1 paladin (or none... which I hope you're not!).

Hegen · 06/30/10, 4:42 PM

Originally Posted by Veldefice

My Greater Heals with full raid buffs takes 1.6 secs to cast and 1.4 with Borrowed Time (it might actually be faster, like 1.5, but I can't remember off the top of my head). With the occasional Penance and shield, I think priests can keep up tanks pretty well.

Well, for a tank healing support role it's generally accepted that a discipline priest can do that superbly.

Regarding full tank healing, however, BT is all well and nice, but if you really need to stay on the tank instead of assisting, then in a burst scenario, even assuming all cooldowns are available, you have Pw:S, Penance and then 1 hasted GH. But if the burst isn't over by then, you're in deep shit until either Pw:S (on the tank) or Penance comes off CD.

Also, when looking at haste for tank healing, consider that while crit isn't overly attractive to shield spammers, it's far more valuable to tank healers, due to Aegis and Inspiration.

Some comprehensive theorycrafting regarding disc in a tank healing role would nicely complement the compendium. Volunteers?

Originally Posted by MADMark

If you search for it, there was a comparison of Flash and Greater Heal to other classes spammable cast time heals (I think it was for Valeria in the last Compendium)

Yes, however these calculations didn't really take effects from Weakened Soul and such into account. I agree with your assessment, but the numbers computed for Valithria are too far off regarding tank healing to be useful.

Cenion · 06/30/10, 6:24 PM

I have dropped the Glowing Twillight Scale today on normal, i did some fast testing and these are my results as a holy priest:
The effect does proc form:
Greater heal, Flash heal, Holy nova, Prayer of healing, Circle of healing, Hymn of hope, Binding heal (both targets) and prayer of mending. The dissapointing thing tho was that it does not proc from Empowered renew.

Veldefice · 06/30/10, 6:54 PM

Originally Posted by Hegen

Well, for a tank healing support role it's generally accepted that a discipline priest can do that superbly.

Regarding full tank healing, however, BT is all well and nice, but if you really need to stay on the tank instead of assisting, then in a burst scenario, even assuming all cooldowns are available, you have Pw:S, Penance and then 1 hasted GH. But if the burst isn't over by then, you're in deep shit until either Pw:S (on the tank) or Penance comes off CD.

Also, when looking at haste for tank healing, consider that while crit isn't overly attractive to shield spammers, it's far more valuable to tank healers, due to Aegis and Inspiration.

Some comprehensive theorycrafting regarding disc in a tank healing role would nicely complement the compendium. Volunteers?

In spike situations... you're generally not the only healer on the tank. I can't think of a fight where spike damage lasts longer than it takes to cast your shield, penance, GH (though, I haven't gotten far on Heroic RS yet). I'm probably just beating on a dead horse since... most raids have 2 paladin healers and don't need priests to stick on tanks for the full duration of a fight. Just trying to find a way to make us more tank healing viable (or rather... better than paladins), but it doesn't look it that will happen.

I don't mind volunteering to throw up some data (or rather numbers), but as I said, my guild is back to 2 paladins in the raid so that doesn't give myself or the other priest a huge chance to strictly tank heal. Perhaps... we can get some data from Hallion (maybe keep both paladins up top and take a priest into the shadow realm). I dunno.

Originally Posted by Cenion

I have dropped the Glowing Twillight Scale today on normal, i did some fast testing and these are my results as a holy priest:
The effect does proc form:
Greater heal, Flash heal, Holy nova, Prayer of healing, Circle of healing, Hymn of hope, Binding heal (both targets) and prayer of mending. The dissapointing thing tho was that it does not proc from Empowered renew.

Assuming it doesn't work on Glyph of PW:S too?

Cenion · 07/01/10, 5:15 AM

I didn't have a Disc spec at the time, did some testing today and it does proc off Glyph of PW:S

Hegen · 07/01/10, 5:34 AM

Originally Posted by Veldefice

I'm probably just beating on a dead horse since... most raids have 2 paladin healers and don't need priests to stick on tanks for the full duration of a fight. Just trying to find a way to make us more tank healing viable (or rather... better than paladins), but it doesn't look it that will happen.

Regarding the dead horse: well, maybe. On the other hand, there are raids like yours currently short of paladins and there are 10 man heroic raids who don't sport a holy paladin (poor sods). In these cases it does make sense to know what a discipline priest can do. The topic does come up regularly, so it's not wasted, but we need to put numbers to it factoring in all discipline effects.

Originally Posted by Cenion

I didn't have a Disc spec at the time, did some testing today and it does proc off Glyph of PW:S

I have integrated your results into the guide. The one thing regarding the mechanics that is still open is whether the heal scales with talents and/or gear.

Cenion · 07/01/10, 5:59 AM

As far as our ICC 25 clearing went yesterday I think the heal IS affected by the +25% aura in ICC, aslo after some testing by jumping down the Org FP tower I came to the conclusion it IS also affected by Blessed resilience
Edit: Grammar

Veldefice · 07/01/10, 1:03 PM

Good to know, thanks Cenion.

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to get any numbers since we didn't have enough to field a good raid (8 healers in the raid?? haha). I'll see what numbers I can get tonight. Perhaps running a 10 man with no paladin would show some better numbers if anyone is willing to get some

I am wearing my haste gearset if people want to see what it is, but it's pretty straightforward (just wear pieces with haste... and possibly crit).

MADMark · 07/01/10, 1:54 PM

Originally Posted by Veldefice

I am wearing my haste gearset if people want to see what it is, but it's pretty straightforward (just wear pieces with haste... and possibly crit).

Again, I'm not behind this idea, but just to put in my two cents: if you're having any mana issues with it, haste + crit might not be your best option. Crit obviously procs DA, but the returns in actual shielding are rather sad for the amount of budget you're investing into it. If you can get by with it, go for it, but haste + Mp5 might be your best bet, where you can get it. Haste + spirit would probably be better, sadly it's all but impossible to find.