WotLK Healing Compendium v3.3.5: Fun in the Twilight with Halion - Page 12

tasha · 07/14/10, 8:56 PM

I'm curious about the GH vs FH comparison.

The gear selected with the GH spec has 67 more spellpower, 1% more crit, 7% more haste (this one makes sense to me, FH build is capped.) While the FH build has 192 more spirit (71 casting mp5). Same intellect values.

A talented and glyphed FH has a MpS of 532 at 50% haste.
A talented GH has a MpS of 660 at 57% haste.
(Let's ignore BT).

Now I know there's some limitation on gear, but I don't understand these choices, why more regen in FH spec at the cost of all throughput stats? Being capped with haste is a drawback (although maybe not so realistic), but shouldn't it pick gear with more crit/spellpower then, instead of spirit?
Empiricaly, I would suggest more regen with GH spec, than with FH spec (and thus less throughput). It would push up FH spec's numbers a bit.

Edit: I realized you may have to consider the HpM as well for sustained phase?
FH build, FH : 9.828 HpM (no crit, no grace)
GH build, GH : 10.222 HpM (no crit, no grace)
But I lack information to go on further.

MADMark · 07/15/10, 8:46 PM

The extra spirit comes from 2 pieces of T10. Obviously the 2pc bonus is alot better for FH than GH. Apparently it is more than enough to outweigh the stat loss from [Gloves of False Gestures] & [Sanctified Crimson Acolyte Mantle] (Shadow).

The FH spec's rotation causes them to lose only 779 whereas GH losses 1325 Mp5 which explains the significantly larger gap between Burst and Sustained.t

jman5411 · 07/29/10, 12:58 PM

"I didn't really intend this to become an argument about HoTs, but since we're here, we're here. Obviously Renew is low HPS"

Sorry for the brief tangent, but I believe this statement to be false. Renew spam actually beats out Prayer of Healing spam in terms of raw healing output per second by about 2000 HPS (not counting glyph of POH), but requires a 12 second ramp-up time to reach this threshold. Think of it this way...at 12 seconds you have about 9 renews out all ticking. I will edit this post at a later time with proof (when I can figure out how to succinctly present it), but meanwhile if you'd like to see the spreadsheet just send me an in-game mail (char. name Aljebra of Proudmoore).

CaseyTheRetard · 07/29/10, 3:34 PM

Originally Posted by jman5411

"I didn't really intend this to become an argument about HoTs, but since we're here, we're here. Obviously Renew is low HPS"

Sorry for the brief tangent, but I believe this statement to be false...

You omitted the remainder of the statement: "...but high HPCT." I think you are misunderstanding the terminology here: Heal Per Cast Time (HPCT) of a HoT is high, but Heal Per Second (HPS) calculated as the total healing done divided by the full duration, is not.

Elimbras · 07/29/10, 8:41 PM

This is not the case for me. POH, including crit is equivalent to (unglyphed) renew hpct. Gyphing POh gives 20% more raw hpct for it. Glyphing renew reduces the hpct.

--------------------------------------------------
Using Rawr, with my priest (full buff enabled, and at 32% healing crit) I get
Renew tick : 2619
Renew instant heal : 1964
Total Renew (including crit) : 2619*5 + 1964*1.16 = 15373 per gcd

POH normal hit : 5374
POH crit hit : 8116
Total POH : (0.68 * 5374 + 0.32 * 8116) * 5 = 31257.2 per cast (ie. per 2 gcd)
Glyphed POH : 31257.2 * 1.2 = 37500

------------------------------------------------------------------
Using the theorycraft (4000 sp, 32% crit) :
Renew tick : [280(base) + 4000 * 1.88/5 (base sp contrib) + 4000*1.88*0.15/5 (emp. renew)]* 1.33 (imp renew (15) + twin disc (5) + spi healing (10) + blessed res (3), additive effect) = 2672
Renew instant hit : 2004
Total renew healing : 15684

POH, uncrit, per target : [2150 (base) + 4000*0.526 (coeff from compendium) ] * 1.23 (spi healing, divine prov and blessed res) = 5232
Mean heal per unglyphed POH : 5232 * 1.16 * 5 = 30348

----------------------------------------------------

I'm not sure of my theorycraft assumptions. However, using the same "external multipliers are merged additively" rule, I overestimate renew compared to rawr, and underestimate POH.
The interesting point is that in both case, unglyphed POH and renew are similar hps, give or take 3%. Glyphing POH leads to significantly more hps for POH.
I don't want it to be seen as "POH rules over renew". One must take into account the overheal, and the nature of the fight. I just wanted actual numbers.

Considering scalings :
POH scales obviously better with crit than renew
Both scales linearly in haste
With regards to spellpower, renew scales at 1.88(base coeff) * 1.15 (emp. healing) * 1.33 (multipliers)* (1 + 0.15*1.16)(instant heal, including crit at 32% crit) = 337.5%
POH scales at 0.526(base coeff) * 1.23 (multipliers) * 5 (#targets) * 1.16 (crit) = 375%

Effect of external modifiers :
If they behave multiplicatively, renew ext. multipliers becomes 1.05*1.15*1.1*1.03 = 1.368, instead of 1.33. POH multipliers becomes then 1.246. Respective gains are 2.85% and 1.3%.

Elimbras · 08/11/10, 2:26 PM

Regarding the section about handling Infest on Lich King in the VI-c )Special Assignment section, I recently found that at least in easy mode, one most efficient way to deal with it is just to use COH. It hits 6 targets, range is mostly not an issue (at least in P1, and most of P3), and with the 30% buff, it is largely enough to top people in the 90-100% range (in 10s and 25s raid). We even had an 10 raid with 2 holy priest (and a druid) : Infest busied both priest only for one GCD, and it was gone.

Hammi · 08/13/10, 11:52 PM

This is probably a silly question, but I admit I'm not that great with addons. And I hope this isn't anywhere else, but I read these forums regularly and I've never seen it be asked or answered.

When I'm using Grid and I have PW:S as my center icon, I can see a timer for it, but when I use it as a side icon, I can't. Does anyone know how to fix this?

Thank you.

ilkori · 08/14/10, 1:19 AM

Originally Posted by Elimbras

I'm not sure of my theorycraft assumptions. However, using the same "external multipliers are merged additively" rule, I overestimate renew compared to rawr, and underestimate POH.
The interesting point is that in both case, unglyphed POH and renew are similar hps, give or take 3%. Glyphing POH leads to significantly more hps for POH.
I don't want it to be seen as "POH rules over renew". One must take into account the overheal, and the nature of the fight. I just wanted actual numbers.

The numbers are useful to a certain extent, but the overheal and nature of the fight overwhelmingly favor renew for most ICC fights (since nothing else is really progression at this point, aside from Heroic Halion which also has significant movement). Further, the damage patterns throughout ICC favor more blanket healing since the Shaman and Druids turn most of my Prayer of Healing into a small heal. Unless it is almost perfectly timed (decimate on trash, green ooze explosions on Professor Putricide, etc.) then I am usually better off using a Flash Heal for a shorter cast time, less mana, and as much effective healing.

Hamzsolja · 08/15/10, 4:09 AM

Val Vs. Scept and Trauma for Disc Priests

so i was very bored and decided to do this

this is a scenario were a priest with Soulay from Area 52 SP spams PWS every GCD possible for 3 minutes keep in mind my math may be wrong and im not considering PWS glyph crits and this is self buffed no procs etc and im also not rounding up or down and with a 1 second GCD for PWS

heres the formula for PWS

(base_absorb+(0.8068+0.08*BT)*sp)*(1+0.05*IMP)*(1+ 0.02*FP)*(1+0.01*TD)

base_absorb is the base absorb given the PW:S which is 2230 at the moment
BT is your Borrowed Time level
SP is your Spell Power
IMP is your Improved Power Word: Shield level
FP is your Focused Power level
TD is your Twin Disciplines level

Trauma -

(2230+(0.8068+0.08*5)*3886)*(1+0.05*3)*(1+ 0.02*2)*(1+0.01*5)

(2230+(0.8068+0.4)*3886)*(1+0.15)*(1+ 0.04)*(1+0.05)

(2230+(1.2068)*3886)*(1.15)*(1.04)*(1.05)

(2230+4689.6248)*(1.15)*(1.092)

(6919.6248)*(1.2558)

8689.66482384 with Trauma per PWS

1737.932964768 PWS Glyph

8689.66482384 + 1737.932964768 = 10427.5881203168 hps

10427.5881203168 * 180 = 1876965.861657024 healing/absorb without Trauma proc

Trauma proc is to RNG depends whos in range or not so im not doing its proc

Val'Anyr - (forgot to remove socket bonus from Trauma so its off by 5 SP)

(2230+(0.8068+0.08*5)*3599)*(1+0.05*3)*(1+ 0.02*2)*(1+0.01*5)

(2230+(0.8068+0.4)*3599)*(1+0.15)*(1+ 0.04)*(1+0.05)

(2230+(1.2068)*3599)*(1.15)*(1.04)*(1.05)

(2230+(4343.2732)*(1.15)*(1.092)

(6573.2732)*(1.2558)

8254.71648456 with Val'anyr per PWS

1650.943296912 PWS Glyph

247.6414945368 Val Proc per PWS glyph heal

247.6414945368 * 15 * 4 = 14858.489672208 3 min fight

15 seconds is the buff and it has a 45 ICD so its going to proc 4 times max 5 but the fight will be over so not counting the 5th

8254.71648456 + 1650.943296912 = 9905.659781472 hps

9905.659781472 * 180 = 1783018.76066496

1783018.76066496 + 14858.489672208 = 1797877.250337168 healing/absorbs with Val'anyr

Royal Scepter II Heroic -

(2230+(0.8068+0.08*5)*3966)*(1+0.05*3)*(1+ 0.02*2)*(1+0.01*5)

(2230+(0.8068+0.4)*3966)*(1+0.15)*(1+ 0.04)*(1+0.05)

(2230+(1.2068)*3966)*(1.15)*(1.04)*(1.05)

(2230+4786.1688)*(1.15)*(1.092)

(7016.1688)*(1.2558)

8810.90477904 with Royal Scep per PWS

1762.180955808 PWS Glyph

8810.90477904 + 1762.180955808 = 10573.085734848 hps

10573.085734848 * 180 = 1903155.43227264 healing/absorbs with Royal Scep

Those are the numbers you would get if none of it were overheals but lets get real 90% of the time PWS glyph is overheals so now im going to compare Val, Trauma, and Royal without the glyph heal

Royal -

1585962.8602272 Absorbs

Val -

1500707.456893008 Abosorbs

Trauma -

1564139.6682912 Absorbs

Val can go up and down depending on how you use it because its like a trinket.. but yea there ya go

i did all of this because someone was trying to tell me Val was better than trauma for Disc

lufe · 09/01/10, 6:45 PM

Guys, I've made some tests with [Glowing Twilight Scale] as a Discipline Priest.

My latest test was in Halion 25H. I used it in the begining of phase 2 (shadow realm), and during the 15 secs I casted Shields and Mendings as usual.
This one single use yielded 97654 effective healing. Each member of the raid got from 11 to 24 effective or partially effective ticks (378 ticks). It had 41.8% overheal, wich means a total raw healing of 233622.
Note: it healed 443 every tick, instead of 402.

Here is the combatlog for further analysis:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Conclusion:
The 215 spell power alone makes it the best available trinket for Discipline Priests (provided you have enough mana).
And the healing effect.. well, 230k raw raid healing every two minutes is huge, and can be a significative help during long raid damage situations.

Overhead · 09/02/10, 10:24 AM

For the sake of simplicity, using lufe's numbers:
During the 21 effective seconds of the buff, he got 11.1k total HPS, and 4.7k effective HPS, just from a use: ability.

Ultimoron · 09/05/10, 5:55 AM

Originally Posted by lufe

Guys, I've made some tests with [Glowing Twilight Scale] as a Discipline Priest.

My latest test was in Halion 25H. I used it in the begining of phase 2 (shadow realm), and during the 15 secs I casted Shields and Mendings as usual.
This one single use yielded 97654 effective healing. Each member of the raid got from 11 to 24 effective or partially effective ticks (378 ticks). It had 41.8% overheal, wich means a total raw healing of 233622.
Note: it healed 443 every tick, instead of 402.

Here is the combatlog for further analysis:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

It looks like there's a small coefficient boost from either Intellect or SP. Easily the BiS trinket for Holy Priests, possibly even more so than Disc Priests. I'm going to go out of my way to try and obtain it.

I'm guessing this replaces [Althor's Abacus] in healing Priest trinkets?

Starfire · 09/05/10, 1:09 PM

You should use both. Exceptions apply if you're doing 10-man without Replenishment or some-such. Also, the on-use is super-useful on some fights (Marrowgar, Festergut, Heroic Lich King) and nearly worthless on others (Saurfang).

Ultimately, the trinket is absolutely Best-in-Slot for all of the hardest fights this tier (Heroic Lich King, Heroic Halion, Heroic Putricide, Heroic Sindragosa). One thing to keep in mind, to maximize the use of the trinket, try to spread out your heals to distant parts of the raid to get everyone covered (for example, on Lich King if using the 2 ranged clumps and melee/tank clumb, try to throw heals to all three areas for maximum coverage).

Hegen · 09/05/10, 2:54 PM

For BiS setups, the combination of the Halion trinket and the Abacus is so clearly best that I put that combination in the guide even before having combat logs.

The reasoning is simple: the alternatives have less spell power, but provide regen. Priests with BiS gear do not have mana problems (exceptions exist, as always). Thus, throughput rules and this combination wins.

Of course, any sane priest will keep very good regen trinkets - just in case.

I have added a very short summary of the latest testing to the trinket section of the guide. Regarding possible scaling, I don't buy the theory of minor stat scaling, though. The increase is just too tiny for a +heal effect at ICC gear level. This looks more like effects from talents and/or +heal effects to me (note the logs show higher ticks of 460 on one of the targets). Given the current state of progression and lack of competing trinkets, it's probably good enough to know the ticks are somewhere between 400 and 500. If someone does more testing outside of raids and with different specs, I will add the results, though.

lufe · 09/06/10, 4:23 AM

Originally Posted by Hegen

Regarding possible scaling, I don't buy the theory of minor stat scaling, though. The increase is just too tiny for a +heal effect at ICC gear level. This looks more like effects from talents and/or +heal effects to me (note the logs show higher ticks of 460 on one of the targets).

You're right Hegen! The HoTs are really not affected by Gear.. full epic, or totally naked yields the same hots.. which implies no stat scaling.
I did some more tests with [Glowing Twilight Scale], to figure the scaling out.

Disc Tree
Focused Power: +4% Healing
Grace: Not effective

It's weird that the HoT is not considered a healing received from the priest (Grace innefective), and at the same time it's considered a healing from your spell (Focused Power works). From my understanding these talents should both work or fail. Guess it's a bug.
Hmmm, haven't tested the Holy Talents: Spiritual Healing, Blessed Resilience, and Test of Faith. I wonder if they apply.. If any of you guys happen to check it out, let us know.

Raid Buffs
Improved Devotion Aura/Tree of Life: +6% Healing, calculated together with Focused Power

As I had most of the hots at 443 in Halion, some raid buffs also applies. I suppose it's the ones just listed.

General
ICC Buff: +30% Healing, calculated after talents and buffs

Self-buffed HoTs:
Unspeced: 402 (Base trinket value)
Disc (Focused Power): 418 (+4% ~= 402*1.04)
Disc in ICC (Focused Power + ICC Buff): 544 (+35.3% ~= 402*1.04*1.30)

Raid-buffed HoTs:
Unspeced (Raid Buff): 426 (+6% ~= 402*1.06)
Disc (Focused Power + Raid Buff): 443 (+10% ~= 402*(1+0.04+0.06))
Disc in ICC (Focused Power + Raid Buff + ICC Buff): 576 (+43.2% ~= 402*(1+0.04+0.06)*1.30)