Combat/Sub Spreadsheet for 4.0.1 - Page 2

Slayer101 · 10/02/10, 5:01 PM

Are there recommended builds based on what is currently known? I have looked throughout the forums and haven't found any detailed builds. There's a lot of info on which I could guess at a build but I would really appreciate if there are any links to builds (or can be posted) that people think are best at this time for 4.01 and/or Cata beta (I just got an invite). I'm looking for Combat. Thanks

Honzu · 10/02/10, 7:22 PM

Originally Posted by Slayer101

Are there recommended builds based on what is currently known? I have looked throughout the forums and haven't found any detailed builds. There's a lot of info on which I could guess at a build but I would really appreciate if there are any links to builds (or can be posted) that people think are best at this time for 4.01 and/or Cata beta (I just got an invite). I'm looking for Combat. Thanks

I'm not as familiar with Combat and Sub atm but you should be able to pick up every talent that would matter in a DPS simulation. Blizzard is forcing us to pick utility so naturally every DPS talent is already taken. The utility talents right now (Besides Fleet Flooted in the Mut tree) are largely debatable and situational.

Feist-Mok · 10/02/10, 7:48 PM

Originally Posted by Honzu

I'm not as familiar with Combat and Sub atm but you should be able to pick up every talent that would matter in a DPS simulation. Blizzard is forcing us to pick utility so naturally every DPS talent is already taken. The utility talents right now (Besides Fleet Flooted in the Mut tree) are largely debatable and situational.

The main 'open question' for level 80 Combat at the moment is what to do with the 5 points that aren't in the Combat tree. It's going to be some combination of Coup De Grace, Lethality, and Relentless Strikes, but the exact mix of where to put those 5 points between those 9 spots is in flux with build changes and tweaks to various damage numbers.

Slayer101 · 10/02/10, 9:14 PM

Originally Posted by Feist-Mok

The main 'open question' for level 80 Combat at the moment is what to do with the 5 points that aren't in the Combat tree. It's going to be some combination of Coup De Grace, Lethality, and Relentless Strikes, but the exact mix of where to put those 5 points between those 9 spots is in flux with build changes and tweaks to various damage numbers.

According to the op it seems 3 relentless and 2 Lethality seem to be the best atm.

Where are ppl putting the 2 utility points in Combat, Improved recuperate?

Feist-Mok · 10/02/10, 9:18 PM

Originally Posted by Slayer101

Where are ppl putting the 2 utility points in Combat, Improved recuperate?

There's 4 points. Arguments can be made in ICC for any combination of Imp. Recuperate, Blade Twisting, Imp. Sprint and Reinforced Leather.

Lightshadow · 10/04/10, 2:29 PM

Updated the OP with a new version of the spreadsheet. It's got some pretty significant updates (functionality, mechanics testing from the other thread, and bug fixes), so if you're using it I suggest grabbing the new version. Mastery is even worse than before!

The biggest worry I have at the moment is boss armor at level 80. From some testing on heroic dummies it seems as if they've reduced boss armor slightly (from 10643 to ~10533), but this of course doesn't nearly compensate for the changes to Sunder and FF. We've gotten lots of buffs in other areas, so this isn't necessarily a disaster, but if they have changed boss armor but happened to forget about the testing dummies, it might make quite a big difference. If anyone has a recent raid parse from the test realm (or happens to feel like testing it), I'd appreciate it. (tested, see below)

As for Relentless Strikes vs. Lethality vs. Coup de Grace: Rupture is worth using regardless of what talents/glyphs you select. As a result you only actually get to eviscerate something like 4 times a minute, so coup de grace is really very weak. (~0.5% damage increase per point). The remaining question is between the 3rd point of RS or the 3rd point in Lethality, and my lack of immediate intuition on that was one of the main reasons for creating the spreadsheet. The current version puts the 3rd point of Relentless Strikes at about 3x the value of the 3rd point in lethality.

Feist-Mok · 10/04/10, 3:20 PM

Originally Posted by Lightshadow

The biggest worry I have at the moment is boss armor at level 80. From some testing on heroic dummies it seems as if they've reduced boss armor slightly (from 10643 to ~10533), but this of course doesn't nearly compensate for the changes to Sunder and FF. We've gotten lots of buffs in other areas, so this isn't necessarily a disaster, but if they have changed boss armor but happened to forget about the testing dummies, it might make quite a big difference. If anyone has a recent raid parse from the test realm (or happens to feel like testing it), I'd appreciate it.

It should be possible for someone with a hunter on the Test realm to give us a definitive answer via ToC+Northrend Beasts, no?

Lightshadow · 10/04/10, 4:38 PM

Thanks for the idea Feist-Mok, I'm not entirely sure why that fight didn't come to mind when I was thinking about this, but it didn't. Beasts gave exactly the same gouge results I got from the test dummy, so apparently the change in armor is really very minimal.

MassMan · 10/05/10, 8:03 AM

Have you thought about modeling Thundering Skyflare Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft ?
Assuming that 21agi 3% crit is still better, but I might be mistaken because of haste synergy with many of the new talents - and your discovery that black magic is better than berserking for offhand.

Lightshadow · 10/06/10, 6:13 PM

Assuming TSD is on a 45 second cooldown, it looks like it's a bit worse than RED but mostly because crit rates tend to be so insanely high. Edit: RED is still solidly better than TSD, I found a minor bug while I was playing with them.

Mongoose looks like it's almost identical to berserking (once again), about a 1dps difference in the spreadsheet assuming equal uptime.

Lightshadow · 10/06/10, 6:39 PM

Another day, another bug, and thus another version of the spreadsheet. The new sheet suggests crit is a little more valuable than previously thought (though still ~10% below haste). I updated the original post with a note about revealing strike as well. I assume that the current implementation is bugged and will be fixed before things go live, but if it stays as is RS may not be worth using at all.

Slayer101 · 10/06/10, 7:30 PM

What is the purpose of the OH Dagger flag in the spreadsheet? Doesn't reducing the avg OH damage for the dagger and speed to 1.4 accurately reflect using the dagger vs. an 1.5 axe for example? It knocks about 100 dps off the total if set to one.

Thanks.

• Aldriana · 10/06/10, 7:34 PM

As combat has several normalized OH attacks (notably KSp and Main Gauche) it is necessary to distinguish between weapons that normalize to 2.4 and daggers, which normalize to 1.7.

Rerox · 10/07/10, 3:05 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

As combat has several normalized OH attacks (notably KSp and Main Gauche) it is necessary to distinguish between weapons that normalize to 2.4 and daggers, which normalize to 1.7.

Concerning that point I am still pondering, whether [Scourgeborne Waraxe] or [Lungbreaker] will be the best Combat OH come 4.01. In theory the 0.1 faster dagger would be stronger due to Combat Potency and Poison procs, but as you mentioned, the axe would be stronger on normalized attacks like Ksp and MG.

sp00n · 10/07/10, 5:08 AM

That's what this sheet is for, isn't it?
I'm showing about a 100 DPS drop if I switch from dagger to non-dagger (not sure if Slayer101 was meaning the same), so assuming the sheet is somewhat accurate, it's a no-brainer. Especially with virtually no mastery rating available at level 80.

// Edit
I've modified your sheet a bit to suit my needs. The main change is that it includes a basic gem selector now. Hope that's okay for you and feel free to use any of the modifications as you wish.

Changelog:

Moved the calculations to their own sheet "Calcs". (I once accidently broke the sheet while adding stuff due to the hidden columns)
Renamed "EP" to "AEP", to reflect your way of calculating them, as they're now not based on Attack Power anymore but on Agility.
Changed the AEP calculation from +40 to -40 per stat (except for Mastery, which is set to 0 and going negative makes no sense).
I'm not 100% happy with this solution either, but it does give the possibility to compare Agility and Crit when you've reached the crit cap without completely dumping their AEP values. Requires a bit more thought on the user's end though.
Simplified the AEP calculation to depend on already present values instead of calculating all of them again.
Added a "DPS/Pt" next to the AEP column, which basically is only "DPS Gain / 40". It simply shows how much DPS you gain by adding 1 point of this stat.
Added a very basic gem selector. It lists the EP for some gems I deemed worthy and displays the one with the maximum AEP for each color.
It also shows how much bonus (in Agility) is required for the gem to be worth it, and also does this calculation for 2x yellow gem and 3x mixed gem.
Bolded and recolored the DPS result field. Also fixed a minor spelling error.
Note: I've noticed a comparatively harsh change in Haste's DPS Gain while changing the calculation to -40 instead of +40. All other stats basically remained the same. Possible bug?