Cataclysm Mechanics Testing - Page 12

Feist-Mok · 12/15/10, 1:09 AM

Originally Posted by Naganuina

I have gotten up to 500 tailoring an started using swordguard embroidery. Just looking at the buffs gained on WoL it looks like 25-28% uptime. Would anybody be interested in some more robust testing?

It would be nice to hammer down the exact ICD, if you don't mind beating on a dummy long enough to get a handle on that.

• Aldriana · 12/15/10, 4:53 AM

Actually, I got sent a log for it this evening. Looks like a 55 second ICD, which, coupled with the 15% proc rate, should work out to uptime in the neighborhood of 26.3%, which matches what you're seeing quite nicely.

It also means its quite competitive with LW for the title of best profession for both Combat and Assassination (if a bit lacking relative to the other options for Subtlety).

I kind of almost wonder if that's a bug - if it had the same 5x duration ICD that most Cata procs have, it'd be quite competitive (slightly behind, but very competitive) with the 80 agi professions. Its curious that an unusual profession winds up being tops for rogues due to a nonstandard proc behavior.

Edit: As noted in the post below mine, this means it is almost but not quite as good as the 80 agi professions in terms of average case benefit for Combat and Assassination. The proc pattern ups its value slightly, so in general I'd describe it as a competitive option and generally not worth switching into or out of if you currently have one of the 80 agi professions..

Naganuina · 12/15/10, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Actually, I got sent a log for it this evening. Looks like a 55 second ICD, which, coupled with the 15% proc rate, should work out to uptime in the neighborhood of 26.3%, which matches what you're seeing quite nicely.

It also means its quite competitive with LW for the title of best profession for both Combat and Assassination (if a bit lacking relative to the other options for Subtlety).

I kind of almost wonder if that's a bug - if it had the same 5x duration ICD that most Cata procs have, it'd be quite competitive (slightly behind, but very competitive) with the 80 agi professions. Its curious that an unusual profession winds up being tops for rogues due to a nonstandard proc behavior.

Wouldn't a 26.3% uptime put it slightly behind the 80agi professions?

(263-65*0.9)/2.6=78.65

Killme888 · 12/15/10, 1:26 PM

Seems like this new design with proc uptime & internal cd makes on use trinkets competitive with proc trinkets as opposed to the past, which is probably what they were aiming for as well. Especially since you can just pop them with vendetta on every cd and/or save them for burn phases.

Also something I've been wondering about, are the trinket procs now correctly modeled on the ShadowCraft spreadsheet with these new findings?

edit:

Did some quick calculations with the values from the FAQ, assuming 100% uptime on Fluid Death/Tia's Grace & 20% uptime on proc trinkets(which is probably too generous)

Mutilate:

[Prestor's Talisman of Machination]: 1467
[Fluid Death]: 1437
[Essence of the Cyclone]: 1336
[Prestor's Talisman of Machination]: 1297
[Essence of the Cyclone]: 1182
[Tia's Grace]: 1149

Combat
[Prestor's Talisman of Machination]: 1633
[Fluid Death]: 1572
[Prestor's Talisman of Machination]: 1445
[Essence of the Cyclone]: 1394
[Essence of the Cyclone]: 1233

Looks like the badge trinket is pretty much the best trinket as the uptime on proc trinkets is probably in the 18%~ range which would move it below the badge trinket and you can easily get 100% uptime with Fluid/Tia on all the boss fights currently with a small chance of dropping on the 2 council fights if you're not quick enough. As for [Unheeded Warning], it looks to be terrible for Mut, no idea about combat though.

• Aldriana · 12/15/10, 1:34 PM

Originally Posted by Naganuina

Wouldn't a 26.3% uptime put it slightly behind the 80agi professions?

(263-65*0.9)/2.6=78.65

Sorry, you're right. I forgot to account for the fact that its replacing your existing cloak enchant. That'll teach me to post at 2 in the morning.

I'll edit accordingly for clarity.

Yurifel · 12/15/10, 1:56 PM

For the sake of doing some additional math of my own, may I ask for clarification on where you are getting the 26.3% uptime? This would put your average time-to-proc at 2 seconds (post-ICD). Can I assume from this that poisons and/or bleeds have a chance to proc the embroidery? It seems unlikely that we would generate enough white+yellow hits in that 2 second window to trigger a 15% proc (given 6.67 expected hits to proc, geometric distribution).

• Aldriana · 12/15/10, 2:23 PM

I basically made an off-the-top-of-my-head ballpark estimate of the number of attacks a rogue typically makes in a second without thinking too hard about what can and can't proc it. Having reviewed that a bit this morning, it looks like 3 is actually a pretty reasonable assumption for Combat, but is a bit high for Assassination, who is closer to 2. So in practice, call it 26, plus or minus a couple of tenths of a percent depending on spec. It doesn't honestly matter that much, though - its a difference of perhaps 5 EP at the most.

Jankage · 12/20/10, 8:35 AM

Originally Posted by Crevan

I had an off-hand Hurricane proc from using a bandage. I guess it's bugged now, I doubt it should proc from non-damaging actions.

Originally Posted by Palanuial

It proccs off spells. It will, for instance, procc off recuperate.

Weapon proc'd Hurricane, refreshed by bandage
Rupture proc'd Hurricane, then weapon proc'd Hurricane stacked
Recuperate proc'd Hurricane, then weapon proc'd Hurricane stacked
Weapon proc'd Hurricane, then refreshed by Deadly Poison

During limited testing I still haven't gotten:
Rupture proc'd Hurricane to refresh itself
Bandage proc'd Hurricane to be refreshed/stacked by Recuperate or vice versa
Recuperate proc'd Hurricane to be refreshed/stacked by Rupture or vice versa
Deadly Poison proc'd Hurricane to be refreshed/stacked by either Recuperate or Bandage

I'm assuming each weapon can proc it's own instance of Hurricane and can refresh itself. If your MH procs Hurricane and then your OH procs Hurricane you get two instances of the buff and vice versa if your OH procs and then your MH procs. I also believe that all damage/heal over-time effects (physical and spell) have their own instance of Hurricane and will refresh itself. It's not just poison/spell that is making three instances of Hurricane possible, which is why Fury warriors are also able to get three stacks of Hurricane. Also, as you see from the situations above if the over-time instance procs Hurricane first, then your weapon proc instance of Hurricane will stack. However, if your weapon procs Hurricane first, then your over-time Hurricane proc will refresh the instance of Hurricane that originated from your weapon.

• Aldriana · 12/20/10, 11:38 AM

I have to admit I'm a little unclear why there's been so much discussion of Hurricane lately - the proc behavior has been described in the OP for weeks and I haven't seen any testing that contradicts what's there. So if all you're doing is posting information which confirms what's already known, that doesn't really help. Please refrain from posting about it unless you discover a behavior that's inconsistent with the current theory of how it works.

Seleli · 12/21/10, 1:30 AM

I'm not certain if [Grace of the Herald] was recently changed, or it's just been an oversight, but it appears to have a 10 second duration, and stated above it has a 100 second ICD. That would break the pattern of 5x buff duration, no?

Also, do you need/want anymore testing done on Avalanche? If so, I'd be more than willing to grab some weapons, enchant them and go testing.

• Aldriana · 12/21/10, 1:42 AM

It had a 20 second duration at some point. I don't have one, so can't comment as to whether the ICD/duration have actually changed.

I think the major outstanding question on Avalanche right now is whether Venomous Wounds can proc it.

Feist-Mok · 12/21/10, 1:58 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

It had a 20 second duration at some point. I don't have one, so can't comment as to whether the ICD/duration have actually changed.

I think the major outstanding question on Avalanche right now is whether Venomous Wounds can proc it.

Is there any reliable way to test for this? given that Rupture ticks can proc Avalanche, and given that the combat log is somewhat wonky about the order in which it reports simultaneous events, I'd assume that simply tagging a mob with Rupture and a poison and then watching the log to see if an Avalanche and Venomous Wounds proc occur back to back is insufficient.

Should it not be, I just did exactly that, and got a proc, but I can't think of any more refined method of testing, given the only way to get a VW proc is an eligible source of avalanche procs.

madsushi · 12/21/10, 2:11 AM

Originally Posted by Feist-Mok

Is there any reliable way to test for this? given that Rupture ticks can proc Avalanche, and given that the combat log is somewhat wonky about the order in which it reports simultaneous events, I'd assume that simply tagging a mob with Rupture and a poison and then watching the log to see if an Avalanche and Venomous Wounds proc occur back to back is insufficient.

Should it not be, I just did exactly that, and got a proc, but I can't think of any more refined method of testing, given the only way to get a VW proc is an eligible source of avalanche procs.

The only method I can think of would be Rupturing over and over again without any talent points and counting Avalanche procs, and then repeating the test after spec'ing into Venomous Wounds. If VW can proc Avalanche, we would expect to see more procs per minute. Unfortunately, the test would take quite some time, due to the time involved in obtaining a statistically relevant sample when paired with Rupture's tick rate.

• Aldriana · 12/21/10, 2:11 AM

Well, if you can get two procs off a rupture tick + venomous wounds proc, that'd be telling. Failing that, you'll probably need to run a large enough sample to distinguish them statistically. That is: MH Avalanche, OH unenchanted, shiv for combo points, apply rupture. Build up a couple hundred rupture ticks. If in 500 rupture ticks (and ~300 VW procs) you generate (about) 50 procs, that (probably) means it can't, whereas if you see (about) 80, that (probably) means it can.

sp00n · 12/21/10, 8:47 AM

MH Avalanche, OH unenchanted, OH Crippling Poison. No autoattacks:

It seems that Venomous Wounds doesn't proc Avalanche.

And Grace of the Herald still seems to have an ICD of 100s, even with the buff lowered to 10s:
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