Cataclysm Mechanics Testing - Page 3

• Aldriana · 10/01/10, 5:41 PM

Your data is internally consistent for the moment, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. As a note on further testing: doing repeated trials once you've identified both possible damage values isn't really that useful - there's just too much noise in the probability distributions for the average to say much. But lets look at we can figure out based purely on the fact that crits do 2058-2059 damage with 6595 AP and 1810 to 1811 damage with 5735 AP.

Wowhead asserts that the damage of gouge at level 85 is 117; this is consistent with your proposed formula of 117 + .21*AP, so lets assume for the moment that that is correct.

Per the combat ratings thread, the armor mitigation parameter, P, is 26070 at level 85. Hence, an attack with raw damage D and mitigated damage D' against a target with armor A satisfies D'/D = P/(A+P), or, rearranging, A = P*(D-D')/D'.

At 6595 AP, D = 3003.9 for a crit, so plugging in at our two endpoints for D, we find that 11963.8 <= A <= 11982.3.
At 5735 AP, D = 2642.7 for a crit, so plugging in at our two endpoints for D, we find that 11972.6 <= A <= 11993.6

Hence, combining these data ranges, we can assert with absolute certainty that, assuming our other formulas are correct, the target's armor is between 11972.7 and 11982.3. Eyeballing it based on the positions of the averages within each range, we can guess that the answer is probably "about" 11975, but with a few more endpoint tests with Gouge (or any other fixed-damage ability), it should be reasonably straightforward to narrow down the answer more precisely.

ieatpaperbag · 10/01/10, 6:45 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

14. How does Coup de Grace stack with Revealing Strike? What about Executioner (the Subtlety Mastery)? What about Aggression?

I did all of the following with no gear and 2 white-quality weapons on a lvl 60 dummy that gave approximately 12.56% DR from Armor. I did not take the RvS glyph, Savage Combat or Bandit's Guile in any spec.

No evis talents, I did take Imp SS for convenience and so that I would have the same AP of 783 from Vitality for all except for the executioner test which had 785 AP via Sinister Calling.

Coup de Grace only with combat as the main tree for vitality.

Coup de Grace with Aggression, they appear to be additive

2978 * (1+ 0.20 + 0.15) = 4020.3 ~ 4005

Coup de Grace with Executioner again with 785 AP and base 20% mastery, these appear to be additive as well

2978 * (1+ 0.20 + 0.20) = 4169.2 ~ 4167

The rest involve RvS which does something to eviscerate that I either misunderstood somewhere, or I did something wrong, or has an effect I just plain can not figure out.

No evis talents, just RvS

Coup de Grace and RvS

3096 * (1+ 0.20) = 3715.2 ~ 3719

Coup de Grace with Aggression and RvS

3096 * (1+ 0.20 + 0.15) = 4179.6 ~ 4199 (getting far but this sample only has 25 eviscerates)

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Interesting. Could you also confirm with Rupture, and perhaps try refreshing DP during KSp? That is, if you have a rolling DP stack and refresh it during KSp, does the following tick do 20% more damage? This will, of course, require getting lucky on poison procs during a KSp, and quickly unequipping your DP weapon once it ends, but I'd be interested to know the answer.

An old rupture also does not increase in tick damage during or after a KSp.

If DP is refreshed during KSp, it increases to 120% until refreshed again after.

In this one, I did not refresh DP after KSp.

In this one, DP was refreshed after one tick after KSp ended.

Originally Posted by Aldriana

[*]Verify the IP/WP proc rates. I have no particular reason to believe it's changed, but it's worth verifying. Similarly, verify that the proc rate on ranged attacks (i.e. FoK) is what you'd expect.

Adding to the expected ranged proc rates in post #21, here are some tests with WP/IP on a single MH weapon, the proc rates appear to be the same as live.

IP on a 2.6 speed Mace

187 / 500 = 0.374 (expected 0.3714)

IP on a 1.3 speed Dagger

93 / 500 = 0.186 (expected 0.1857)

WP on a 2.6 speed Mace

460 / 501 = 0.918 (expected 0.9286)

WP on a 1.3 speed Dagger

230 / 500 = 0.460 (expected 0.4643)

Starfox · 10/01/10, 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by Xenden

18. Does HAT affect Spell Crit?

Hat does affect spell crit as well as melee crit.

I'm not quite sure why it says there was 32 sp, i had no buffs on me, so I assume it is just a bug.
And if anyone is interested this is the spec i used; shouldn't make a difference, but I'm including it for the sake of completeness.

All but your first 10 intellect count towards SP/Mana pool.
All but your first 10 agilty count towards AP/crit.
All but your first 10 strength count towards AP/block (if str still increases blockvalue).
So it seems you should have exactly 42 intellect naked
Probably some very old design decision that still lurks around

Regarding HaT: There are no +5% spell and 5% melee crit buffs, every crit buff gives %5melee and spell crit, a little step further down the road so you don't only have 2-3 exact 10man raid setups which guarantee you all de/buffs

• Aldriana · 10/01/10, 11:47 PM

Originally Posted by Starfox

Regarding HaT: There are no +5% spell and 5% melee crit buffs, every crit buff gives %5melee and spell crit, a little step further down the road so you don't only have 2-3 exact 10man raid setups which guarantee you all de/buffs

I'm completely aware of the design principal; on the other hand, consider the wording of the abilities:

Leader of the Pack: "increases critical strike chance..."
Elemental Oath: "...bonus to their critical strike chance."
HAT: "Increases the ranged and melee critical hit chance..."

There's a very distinct difference in wording there. And it's not like they haven't shown a willingness to give some classes inferior versions of buffs - for instance, how there are both +10% and +6% spell power buffs. So it might just be a typo. Or we might actually have a weak version of the ability. And rather than making assumptions, it seemed sensible to test it.

Lightshadow · 10/02/10, 1:25 AM

26. Does the AR haste stack as expected with Windfury/SnD/Haste Rating?

AR haste stacks multiplicatively with SnD, WF, and haste rating.

				Observed		Expected	
base speed			2.6	1.6		
6% haste talents		2.45	1.51	2.452830189	1.509433962
AR + talents			2.04	1.26	2.044025157	1.257861635
AR + talents +snd		1.46	0.9	1.460017969	0.898472597
AR + talents + WF		1.86	1.14	1.858204688	1.143510577
AR + talents + WF + snd		1.33	0.82	1.327289063	0.81679327

				2.6	1.5		
talents + gear			1.85	1.07	1.846315535	1.06518204
AR + talents + gear		1.54	0.89	1.538596279	0.8876517
AR + talents + gear + snd	1.1	0.63	1.098997342	0.634036928
AR + talents + gear + WF	1.4	0.81	1.39872389	0.806956091
AR + talents + gear + SnD +WF	1	0.58	0.999088493	0.576397208

By the by, can you say a little more about what you mean (or link to the original posts) about 16 and 24?

shadowboy813 · 10/02/10, 3:17 AM

Originally Posted by Lightshadow

FoK on the main target is buffed, but not on any of the secondary targets.

Edit: I can also say something more about energy regen. Without a doubt base regen is 10/second and 12.5 a second with vitality. The value of haste was up for debate in the 4.0.1 combat spreadsheet thread, so I did a somewhat longer test. I spammed fok for 120 seconds and recorded both the total casts and the energy remaining at the end of the test. With 32.57% haste I got 58 casts off with 58 energy remaining, for a net expenditure of 1988 energy or 16.566 energy/sec. If haste is multiplicative (e.g. regen = 12.5 * (1+haste%)) then I'd have expected 16.571 energy/sec, well within the margin for human error here. The only alternative hypothesis I've heard advanced was 12.5 + .11 * haste% which would predict an overall regen of 1930 energy, a reasonably large difference.

Having done that I went one step further and did the exact same test (with the same 32.57% haste) but this time also used an adrenaline rush during the test, making sure not to cap and without the glyph. Here I got 63 casts off with 78 energy remaining at the end, for a total regen of 2183. The total difference in energy regained was thus 195 (give or take a little bit given that I might have read the energy remaining bar slightly early/late). Without the glyph I would have expected 150 energy regained if there was no interaction with vitality, but this is significantly higher. It's a much closer match for it being 150*1.25 than it is for just the flat 150, but also pretty clearly not being influenced by haste.

I did a test of energy regen scaling with haste using a different method (prior to seeing this post).

My methodology (assumptions noted where they were made).
I dumped energy with fan of knives, standing outside of melee range with autoattack off. I then spammed fan of knives for 200 executes. I noted the activity on recount and divided this into the expected energy cost of 200 Fans of Knives. I did this at 0 haste rating, and 7 other incremental values of haste. I then plotted these on a spreadsheet and added a trendline using the built in least squares fit.

I then repeated the same experiment as subtlety (no benefit from vitality).

It appears as though vitality stacks multiplicatively with haste-based energy regen scaling.

Here is the chart:

(Note the outlier at around 20% haste on the subtlety line. Nature called about halfway through so that point only represents 100 FoK executes. EACH point represented 6-9 minutes of pressing the same button repeatedly. I was not about to start that data point all over).

I agree that this method has some error introduced that would increase the energy regeneration from the initial energy dump and if anyone is interested, I will refine my method to a more accurate one. By using time-stamps from a combat log, parsing them, and discarding initial executes to a point where the derivative of time-between-executes becomes tolerably close to zero. This should allow a more meaningful data set to be used.

• Aldriana · 10/02/10, 4:05 AM

Originally Posted by Lightshadow

By the by, can you say a little more about what you mean (or link to the original posts) about 16 and 24?

16: Cataclysm Rogue Changes
24: Perhaps it's my imagination, but my impression on previous fights with snare-able targets (Freya comes to mind) was that the uptime on Blade Twisting isn't anywhere near the 90%+ you'd expect based on the tooltip proc rate. And since I don't recall anyone ever actually verifying what the proc rate is, it seems reasonable to at least to a sanity test to see if the proc rate is the 40% the tooltip suggests. Doesn't need to be big or fancy, just a couple hundred hits to verify it's in the right ballpark, confirm that it procs off SS, finishers, and KSp, etc.

niemann · 10/02/10, 5:28 AM

On Venomous Wounds, Potent Poisons and Vile Poisons stacking.

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Interesting - particularly since Venomous Wounds implies the opposite. I wonder if the damage range on IP is dirtying the results? Regardless, we'll need more testing - we should probably look at WP and DP in addition to Venomous Wounds and IP to try to get the full picture. As a note to people testing this: beware of Master Poisoner.

Venomous Wounds doesn't gain from Vile Poisons which was also never implied in the earlier test. In my case, Venomous Wounds did 1203-1204 damage with and without Vile Poisons.

Regarding stacking, I tested with one deadly poison stack.

With only 20% Potent Poisons: 265-266.
With 20% Vile Poisons and 20% Potent Poisons: 309-310.

Worst case: 310/265=1.169.

On a more curious note, Venomous Wounds only works when your target is poisoned.

korner · 10/02/10, 5:53 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

7 How do Opportunity and Improved Ambush stack?

Tested with no proc enchants/trinkets and no meta gem (so crit is exactly 2 * normal nit)

1. Clean Ambush, no Imp. Ambush, no Opportunity.

Min. damage: 1852
Max. damage: 1859

2. Improved Ambush only:

Min. damage: 2130 (minimal crit/2)
Max. damage: 2138 (max. crit/2)

Calculated values:

min: 1852*1.15 = 2129.8  ~ 2130
max: 1859*1.15 = 2137.85 ~ 2138

3. Improved Ambush + Opportunity:

Min. damage: 2686 (minimal crit/2)
Max. damage: 2696 (max. crit/2)

Calculated values:

1. Multiplicative:

min: 1852*1.15*1.30 = 2768.74
max: 1859*1.15*1.30 = 2779.21

2. Additive:

min: 1852*(1+0.15+0.30) = 2685.4 ~ 2686
max: 1859*(1+0.15+0.30) = 2695.6 ~ 2696

So, Opportunity and Imp. Ambush do stack additively.

PS: Regarding Find Weakness:
It looks like it's not implemented on PTR - none of Ambush, Garrote or Cheap Shot does not modify damage of yellow attacks or autoattacks, at least for me.

• Aldriana · 10/02/10, 2:17 PM

Originally Posted by Lightshadow

I can verify that autoattack damage gets boosted during KsP. Totally naked except for a white 1h level 1 sword (with flowers in the OH to prevent attacks).

For this test, can you confirm what weapon you were using? In particular, what speed it was?

Docrev · 10/02/10, 4:30 PM

Originally Posted by niemann

On a more curious note, Venomous Wounds only works when your target is poisoned.

That's actually not surprising at all. It's stated clearly on the tooltip that that's the way it works: Venomous Wounds - Spell - World of Warcraft

Starfox · 10/03/10, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

I'm completely aware of the design principal; on the other hand, consider the wording of the abilities:

Leader of the Pack: "increases critical strike chance..."
Elemental Oath: "...bonus to their critical strike chance."
HAT: "Increases the ranged and melee critical hit chance..."

There's a very distinct difference in wording there. And it's not like they haven't shown a willingness to give some classes inferior versions of buffs - for instance, how there are both +10% and +6% spell power buffs. So it might just be a typo. Or we might actually have a weak version of the ability. And rather than making assumptions, it seemed sensible to test it.

Easiest to get directly from the according spells
Leader of the Pack - Spell - World of Warcraft
Honor Among Thieves - Spell - World of Warcraft
Elemental Oath - Spell - World of Warcraft

Effect #1	Apply Area Aura: Mod Crit Chance % - All

vs

Apply Area Aura: Mod Spell Crit %

and

Apply Area Aura: Mod Melee & Ranged Crit %

ieatpaperbag · 10/03/10, 2:47 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

31. Glyph of Hemo was exhibiting some buggy behavior during beta. Is this fixed? How does it react to Hemo crits vs regular crits? If you have a Glyph DoT ticking and you hemo again, does it refresh?

I am not familiar with the buggy behavior that was seen or what you mean by its reaction to hemo crits vs regular crits but hopefully this will cover some of that. Sorry if it's all stuff you already know.

First, the DoT is enhanced by the hemo bleed debuff even if the debuff is not present before the hemo strike and the DoT itself can crit.

2551 * 0.40 / 8 * 1.30 = 165.815

The DoT is updated to the damage of the most recent Hemo strike and damage is not carried over, here my AP dropped 7105 from to 785

6274 * 0.40 / 8 * 1.30 = 407.81
3906 * 0.40 / 8 * 1.30 = 253.89

Here a non-crit was refreshed to a crit

2902 * 0.40 / 8 * 1.30 = 188.63
5426 * 0.40 / 8 * 1.30 = 352.69

Here is a crit refreshed to a non-crit

5917 * 0.40 / 8 * 1.30 = 384.605
2675 * 0.40 / 8 * 1.30 = 173.875

The DoT is also multiplicatively buffed by Sanguinary Vein even if a bleed is not already present

2255 * 0.40 / 8 * 1.30 * 1.10 = 161.2325

And as one would expect the DoT is updated to the damage of a hemo buffed by Sanguinary Vein

2383 * 0.40 / 8 * 1.30 * 1.10 = 170.3845
2533 * 0.40 / 8 * 1.30 * 1.10 = 181.1095

• Aldriana · 10/03/10, 3:21 AM

Re: bugginess. See here for the problems that were previously observed; this seems to be fixed.

To clarify a few minor details:
a) Is it a true refresh? i.e., does it preserve tick spacing?
b) Am I correct in assuming the DoT does not benefit from haste?
c) Can you receive crit ticks if the Hemo itself crit? I would assume so, but I don't see any in your testing above.
d) Can you tell if the initial Hemo that puts the DoT up gains the benefit of Sanguinary Veins, or does the buff not go up until after the Hemo has dealt its damage? This is probably best tested with a low-damage weapon and lots of AP. This would also be a good time to doublecheck the normalization status of Hemo.

Bakemono · 10/03/10, 4:57 AM

For all those testing Subtlety on the PTR:

Glyph of Backstab is BUGGED. It currently behaves BOTH like the live version of the glyph (extended Rupture duration by 2 sec per Backstab, up to a maximum of 6 extra seconds) AND the new model (5 energy refund on a Backstab crit), but this bug ONLY occurs on the initial application of Rupture; in other words, the bug does not occur when Rupture is refreshed to its original duration from a Serrated Blades Eviscerate.

Example: On a level 80 training dummy, I started from stealth and used Premeditation (2 CP), then Shadowstep -> Garrote (4 CP), Hemorrhage (5 CP), Rupture, and the next three Backstabs added two seconds each to Rupture's duration (like in the live model), but I was still seeing "+5 energy" in MSBT immediately following my Backstab crits (the new model).

Seeing as how the new Glyph of Backstab says "Your Backstab critical strikes grant you 5 energy" and says nothing about increasing the duration of Rupture, it seems fairly obvious to me that this is indeed a bug.

I've already reported this bug, but the point of this post is to warn Rogues testing Subtlety that this bug exists and that it may affect your test results.