I don't think I've seen it posted anywhere, but I can confirm that DP refreshes due to having DP on your thrown weapon will proc your MH poison. My test involved using IP/DP/DP, and spamming FoK outside of melee range (with my back turned) on the 2 lvl 80 dummies and 1 heroic lvl 83 dummy in Stormwind (hitting 3 targets total). I started by stacking DP to 5 stacks on each dummy, then noting the number of IP procs for each individual FoK thereafter. Anything more than 3 procs is due to Vile Poisons. The most number of IP procs that I observed was 7.

My guess is that there are 3 chances for IP procs on each target when using IP/DP/DP: 1) thrown refreshes DP, 2) VP procs MH, 3) VP procs OH, refreshing DP. 2 & 3 will only happen on up to 2 targets due to the 2 target limit to VP.

It's also worth noting that DP stacks to 5 relatively quickly on the first two targets thanks to VP (I was averaging ~6s to stack to 5 over about 30 tests). It can be quite a bit longer than this for the third or higher target(s), but it does mean that if the AE pack is going to last much longer than ~6s, DP on your thrown weapon will proc more IP than IP on your thrown will, not to mention the additional DP damage.

OK, so I just put a couple thousand poison ticks on a combat dummy. I used nothing but auto-attacks and had a 14.31 crit rating for the session. Both my instant and deadly settled at a 12.5% crit rate, but given the variance in the RNG I feel this is +/- .3%.

Statistically speaking, that data set is sufficient to tell us that your crit rate is between 11.2% and 13.8%; hence, crit reduction is (probably) between .51% and 3.11%. It does, however, give us a reasonable degree of confidence that there is at least *some* crit reduciton, but we'll need more testing - and ideally testing at around 1-3% spell crit - to really pin it down.

Latest data:

1.83% - 1K procs, no crit
2.13% - 4.3K procs, no crit
2.22% - crit after roughly 420 procs
2.29% - crit after roughly 200 procs
2.53% - crit after roughly 70 procs

That's all I have in me tonight. I have updated the totals with my different runs added together. I can not get anything under 2.22% to crit.


Screenie showing upper limit is down to 2.22%...

Figured I'd go ahead and do some testing on this of my own, here's what I've got so far:

1.00% crit(46 rating): 1553 proccs, no crits.
1.46% crit(67 rating): 362 proccs, 2 crits.




Edit: I'd do more testing but the EU servers are down for the next 8 hours.

Wow, that makes me wonder if wound is somehow different. I have a total of over 4,000 instant and deadly procs between 1.83 and 2.13 without a single crit.

If it matters, I am not in beta. My testing is on the live US servers.

Well I'm using Wound Poison so I'm applying Master Poisoner, that's the only thing I could think of.

I have master poisoner up the whole time as well. I wonder if Blizz raised the crit reduction with the maintenance this week.

For what it matters, I run the same setup MrBill did: IP/DP (master poisoner up; nothing to do with crit though) but nailing the 2.18%. Ater about 1500 procs I didn't get any crit.
(I'll upload a screenie if the data is still there once eu servers are up)
My best guess is a random scorch effect applied mid-test on Spoonwoman's, or some weird mechanic with wound :/

In that case yours is probably the correct one, however I'm certain that there was no outside buff introduced since I was watching it by myself watching it and thinking I didn't expect a crit with that little crit%. I'll test it again tomorrow when servers get back up, though.

I've encountered a crit with 98 crit rating (2.13%). (I also saw one with 100 rating.)
There was a warlock near, however I specifically checked for any occurrences for Shadow Mastery in my combat log, and they were none - indeed the string "shadow" didn't even turn up once.




I'm currently testing with 95 crit rating (2.07%) and have yet to see a crit after 5047 procs.


// Edit
Added combat log if anyone wants to double check.

// Edit #2
So 7700 procs later I haven't seen a crit with 96 crit rating (2.09%). Need a break, maybe I'll continue testing with 97 or 98 again (in case my previous finding was a fluke, which I doubt however) later.

Ok, results.
9900 procs at 97 rating (2.11%) with no crit. (Horde came by to visit so had to stop there)
7000 procs at 98 rating (2.13%) with one crit. (forgot to enable combatlog in the beginning)

So my previous (lucky) result at 98 rating was no fluke.


(Also note the Savage Combat uptime. It's ridiculous low!)

9900 procs with no crits implies that the actual proc rate is 99% likely to be below .0465%; hence, these tests are consistent with a crit reduction somewhere between 2.066% and 2.135%. So it's "about" 2.1% according to most testing we've done.

Yeah, I just finished my own testing in lieu of sp00n's.

97 crit, 8378 proccs, no crits.
98 crit, 844 proccs, 1 crit.




Edit: Added results from a crit with 98 crit rating.

Not sure if it's been discussed here, but there is a bug when using double wound poison where the proc from the other weapon's poison will always cancel savage combat, hence the low uptime.

EDIT: Upon a quick test this also seems to happen with only one weapon coated with wound poison. Every proc cancels savage combat and it takes quite a while for it to reapply. This problem goes away though when using deadly poison on the other weapon. Whenever deadly poison gets applied to the mob savage combat appears and stays there regardless of following wound poison or deadly poison procs.

I instructed a friend with beta acces to do some tests. He used a lvl85 premade, stripped off trinkets and two dirks with 5988AP, no buffs nor debuffs on the Exodar dummy. Goal was to run three tests with different talent choices, checking the combat log ingame; test1:no talents, only the assassination specialization taken: Mutilate and Assassin's Resolve; test2: three points in Lethality; test3: fill up the assassination tree and take 3 points in Opportunity. My mate took (as I told him) about 2-3 different values for each cell in this table

	MH hits	OH hits	MH crits	OH crits
No talents	1099-1101	668-669	2198-2201	1336-1338
Lethality	1099-1101	668-669	2527-2531	1537-1539
Opportunity	1429-1431	869-870	3288-3290	1998-2000

Using the formula (normalized weapon damage+201)*1.5*Assassin's Resolve*armor reduction Assassin's Resolve being 1.15 and armor reduction: 26070/(26070+11977); and modifying it by

	MH hits	OH hits	MH crits	OH crits
No talents	1.0*1.0	1.0*1.0 and 0.5 weapon damage	2.0*1.0	2.0*1.0 and 0.5 weapon damage
Lethality	1.0*1.0	1.0*1.0 and 0.5 weapon damage	2.3*1.0	2.3*1.0 and 0.5 weapon damage
Opportunity	1.0*1.3	1.0*1.3 and 0.5 weapon damage	2.3*1.3	2.3*1.3 and 0.5 weapon damage

We get the following (note that the two values account for the high and low-end of dirk's damage):

	MH hits	OH hits	MH crits	OH crits
opp=0 leth=0	1098,19-1100,56	667,89-669,07	2196,39-2201,11	1335,77-1338,14
opp=0 leth=3	1098,19-1100,56	667,89-669,07	2525,84-2531,28	1536,14-1538,86
opp=3 leth=3	1427,65-1430,72	868,25-869,79	3283,6-3290,67	1996,98-2000,51

Every value from the tests fits into the expected outcomes. Testing ended when a warrior approached and I promptly told my friend to stop in fear of sunders and physical vulnerabilities applied; that may explain the not so well populated data on crits with maxed opportunity and lethality.
I think we can conclude the damage formula is pretty much as expected: both hands get full bonus, lethality adds additively to the crit bonus (230% damage that is) and opportunity adds multiplicatively to the whole formula. For completeness in this post, I may add the 20% from poisoned target that adds multiplicatively too as sugested in my previous testings.
To wrap it up: (1+crit?*(1+lethality+meta))*opportunity*(normalized weapon damage*MH?+201)*1.5*1.15*1.2*26070/(26070+11977) where crit? should be 0 on hit and 1 on crit, and MH? a 1-0.5 binary value to account for main hand or offhand mutilates (I took the liberty to throw the meta in there since we seem to be getting the same +3%crit damage kind)
I must admit the tests show a sift towards the expected high ends; I don't know if this is due to lack of data or the inconsistency I find in dirk's tooltip (1-3 damage/1.6 speed should render 1.25dps and not 1.4), or something I completely missunderstood in here. Is there anything else I could include in this?

>edited a thousand times for clarification
>edit 2: It's worth noting that Mutilate no longer can be taken with DW specialization. The DW penaly seems to be consistently applied to the normalized weapon damage and not the 181, 201 at 85, part of the formula (and this also applies to other fromulas arranged in the same fashion).
Also, I'd like to know about the oddities Aldriana refers to when talking about Opportunity. I remember some speculation about it not being applied when attacking from the front (due to mutilate being the only attack affected by the talent that could be used from the front after BC), but from what we've seen I think that was ruled out.

I've done some additional Hurricane testing and can probably confirm it has a proc rate of 1 PPM.

For my first test, I dual wielded 2.6s weapons with Hurricane on both. I had 787 procs in 17,267 landed swings. This gives a 95% confidence interval of .98 - 1.13 PPM. For the next test I used 1.8s/1.4s daggers. This gives an average swing time of 2*1.8*1.4/(1.8+1.4) = 1.575s. I had 264 procs in 10937 swings, which gives a 95% confidence interval of .82 - 1.04 PPM. Combining the data from both tests by normalizing by swing time, it gives an average PPM of 60*(787 + 264)/(10937*1.575 + 17267*2.6) = 1.015 PPM.

2.6s testing WoL: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
1.8/1.4s testing WoL: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Edit after further testing:

Weapon based attacks proc Hurricane like a standard enchant. There's no ICD. It has a proc rate of 1 PPM. Each hand procs independently of the other, and the buffs stack.

The spell based procs are caused by a variety of abilities that wouldn't typically proc a weapon enchant, including but not necessarily limited to, deadly poison, rupture, garrote, and recuperate ticks. IP wasn't able to proc it as a spell or as a weapon-based hit. The proc behavior for these abilities is different from the weapon-based attacks. There is an ICD, and the shortest time I saw between procs when only using spells(LBs on a shaman) was 46s, making it likely it's actually 45s. The proc chance is probably 15% judging from this spell: Hurricane (DND). With Hurricane on both weapons, I saw 20 procs out of 74 casts outside the ICD(27%), which fits the 1-(1-.15)^2 = 27.75% proc chance you would expect if having the enchant on both hands gives it 2 chances to proc per cast.

As mentioned in a previous post, a spell-based proc when no instance of the buff is currently active will give you an instance of the buff. Normal MH or OH procs while this spell-procced buff is active will not refresh it and will instead start/refresh their own instances of the buff. This allows the possibility of having 3 stacks active at the same time. If either the MH or OH has an active buff when a spell-based proc occurs, that stack will just be refreshed.

If both the MH and OH have an active buff when a spell-based proc occurs, it will refresh one of them. Which hand's buff is refreshed seemed to be random. I thought it might be related to which hand had an active proc first or which had been refreshed most recently, but I saw conflicting results when testing both of those possibilities.

Lastly, when a spell-based proc refreshes what was a MH or OH buff, that buff instance is instead considered to be a spell-based buff. By that, I mean if that hand were to proc again, it would start a new stack of the buff rather than refreshing what was previously its own instance before the spell-based proc refreshed it.

Feel free to ask questions if any of that was unclear.

It appears that Bandit's Guile is not affecting Killing Spree damage. I just ran 4 trials (No BG, 5%, 10%, 15%), with 21 killing sprees in the control test, and 25 in each of the BG tests.

Results for average total damage per Killing Spree are as follows:

Control: 1,751.76
5% BG: 1,729.68
10% BG: 1730.5
15% BG: 1,745.48

Control parse: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
5% parse: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
10% parse: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
15% parse: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Obviously, given the relatively low number of trials, these results cannot be considered 100% conclusive, but I believe the degree of repetition is sufficient to indicate that it is extremely likely that BG is not affecting KS.

EDIT: These trials were performed naked, using Dalaran Sword MH and OH.

It seems a little odd that your control test had higher damage numbers than either of the other 3. If it was truly not affect Killing Spree damage then you'd expect the damage to be exactly the same across all 4.

What I did notice however was looking at the logs from the parses, in all but the very last trial, there were other people hitting on the same dummy you were hitting on. Any sort of debuffs they put up could cause variance in your numbers. I didn't see any debuffs put up, but I also didn't see Bandit's Guile in the log so clearly it's not showing everything.

Given the small sample size, the difference in damage between tests seems reasonable. With that small a sample size, variations of less than one percent from the mean as observed in Zephram's tests are not a significant difference.

I agree. I wasn't looking at his totals when I was commenting, I was actually referring to the raw data in the parses.

More concerning to me is
1) I thought Bandit's Guile was only proc'd by Sinister Strike or Revealing Strike? Neither of those abilities show up in the log.
2) As I said above, other people are attacking the same dummies in most of the logs.

Looking at the time stamps, it appears the log was edited and everything before and after the Killing spree was edited out. I say this because there's 2 minute gaps in the log and when Putok wasn't doing Killing Spree, apparently the other people stopped attacking as well.

This is relevant because of one other observation. He says he casts 25 Killing Spree's in each of the BG tests. And I counted the number of "casts Killing Spree" and it looks like he did indeed cast 25 on each test. However, Killing Spree "attacks every .5 seconds with both weapons until 5 assaults have been made and increasing damage done by 20% for the duration". So for every Killing Spree, there should have been 10 attacks. So with 25 Killing Spree, there should be 250 attacks.

BG 5% - 242 attacks
BG 10% - 234 attacks
BG 15% - 248 attacks

with no Killing Spree misses as far as I could see.

Looking at the log for the BG 10% since it had the fewest Killing Spree Attacks, I see it looks like sometimes there were only 8 attacks made instead of 10. (Note the 2 minute gaps at top and bottom. Those were already there, I didn't filter anything out)

[21:04:52.725] Putok hits Expert's Training Dummy 1 (O: 103)
[21:06:46.006] Expert's Training Dummy's Blade Twisting is refreshed by Putok
[21:06:46.275] Putok gains Killing Spree from Putok
[21:06:46.275] Putok casts Killing Spree
[21:06:46.275] Putok hits Expert's Training Dummy 1 (O: 115)
[21:06:46.358] Putok Killing Spree Expert's Training Dummy 1 (O: 186)
[21:06:46.794] Putok Killing Spree Expert's Training Dummy 1 (O: 170)
[21:06:46.794] Expert's Training Dummy's Blade Twisting is refreshed by Putok
[21:06:46.891] Putok hits Expert's Training Dummy 1 (O: 136)
[21:06:47.293] Putok Killing Spree Expert's Training Dummy 1 (O: 174)
[21:06:47.293] Putok Killing Spree Expert's Training Dummy 1 (O: 152)
[21:06:47.293] Expert's Training Dummy's Blade Twisting is refreshed by Putok
[21:06:47.760] Putok Killing Spree Expert's Training Dummy 1 (O: 188)
[21:06:47.760] Putok hits Expert's Training Dummy 1 (O: 134)
[21:06:48.144] Silvermoon Ranger begins to cast Shoot Bow
[21:06:48.144] Putok Killing Spree Expert's Training Dummy 1 (O: 154)
[21:06:48.144] Putok's Killing Spree fades
[21:06:48.227] Putok hits Expert's Training Dummy 1 (O: 128)
[21:06:48.445] Putok Killing Spree Expert's Training Dummy 1 (O: 197)
[21:06:48.445] Putok Killing Spree Expert's Training Dummy 1 (O: 155)
[21:06:48.445] Expert's Training Dummy's Blade Twisting is refreshed by Putok
[21:08:42.927] Putok hits Expert's Training Dummy 1 (O: 97)
[21:08:43.145] Expert's Training Dummy's Blade Twisting is refreshed by Putok


So the total damage done by this Killing Spree was 1,376.