The 4.0.1 Rogue FAQ - Page 10

• Aldriana · 10/11/10, 7:49 PM

Its worth noting that even if unbuffed DPS is about the same - an assertion which I won't confirm or refute - its worth noting that our buffed DPS will be quite a bit lower as a significant number of powerful raid buffs have been nerfed or removed.

Lyphe · 10/11/10, 7:51 PM

I've seen a few ppl ask about WP (vs) IP, but I couldn't find any replies ( looked through this and a few other threads ). In my very primitive testing, WP keeps coming out ahead. But, I've got a lot of things broken on my PTR copy, so I have no idea how accurate my numbers are.

Has anything definitive ( or as definitive as it gets for PTR at this stage ) been established re/ WP versus IP?

Freitzehn · 10/11/10, 8:47 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Its worth noting that even if unbuffed DPS is about the same - an assertion which I won't confirm or refute - its worth noting that our buffed DPS will be quite a bit lower as a significant number of powerful raid buffs have been nerfed or removed.

Do we know if we want to do a high rupture or low rupture priority yet?

Valustria · 10/11/10, 8:56 PM

Originally Posted by Ambushu

My glyphs for prime are Killing spree and Sinister Strike.

How often can Killing Spree be used? Is the extra damage from the glyph really substantial? Maybe I just don't have a good idea of the context without having played around with it myself, but I see the KS glyph and it just seems underwhelming. My instinct is to Glyph for SS, SnD, and Rupture because I know they will be used consistently.

Ambushu · 10/11/10, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by Valustria

How often can Killing Spree be used? Is the extra damage from the glyph really substantial? Maybe I just don't have a good idea of the context without having played around with it myself, but I see the KS glyph and it just seems underwhelming. My instinct is to Glyph for SS, SnD, and Rupture because I know they will be used consistently.

When you spec into Restless blades you end up using it quite often because everytime you use a finishing move regardless of its combo point, it shaves that much off the CD. This includes Adrenalin Rush as well.

So for example if you had a 5 point rupture it would shave off 5 seconds off the AR and KS cd. You do another round and instead of doing 5 point rupture you do 5 point eviscerate, it shaves off another 5 seconds. If you did 3 for each, it would shave off 3 seconds per finisher etc etc.

So even though it has a 2 minute cd, you do not wait 2 minutes for KS to come off CD.

Ill jump on the PTR right now and glyph for something else or just unglyph it all together and see what the DPS is like without the KS glyph.

EDIT: Ok so I cant do it right as of this moment cause the cities are under attack. This being the case disallows you to train, use the AH, or use training dummies.

ninjawhite · 10/11/10, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by Ambushu

So for example if you had a 5 point rupture it would shave off 5 seconds off the AR and KS cd. You do another round and instead of doing 5 point rupture you do 5 point eviscerate, it shaves off another 5 seconds. If you did 3 for each, it would shave off 3 seconds per finisher etc etc. .

Isn't it 10 seconds per 5-point finisher? (excluding SnD)

Originally Posted by Valustria

How often can Killing Spree be used? Is the extra damage from the glyph really substantial? Maybe I just don't have a good idea of the context without having played around with it myself, but I see the KS glyph and it just seems underwhelming. My instinct is to Glyph for SS, SnD, and Rupture because I know they will be used consistently.

I'm know that Glyph of AR was said to be the 2nd best after Glyph of SS by Lightshadow in the 4.0.1 spreadsheet post, as for the last slot he also said that Glyph of Rupture is stronger than Glyph of Revealing Strike, but I haven't heard much about Glyph of KS.

Feist-Mok · 10/11/10, 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by ninjawhite

Isn't it 10 seconds per 5-point finisher? (excluding SnD)

I'm know that Glyph of AR was said to be the 2nd best after Glyph of SS by Lightshadow in the 4.0.1 spreadsheet post, as for the last slot he also said that Glyph of Rupture is stronger than Glyph of Revealing Strike, but I haven't heard much about Glyph of KS.

It's 2 seconds per combo point, only from damage-dealing finishers (Rupture, Evisc basically for Combat).

Glyph of Killing Spree hasn't come up much because quite frankly, +10% damage during Killing Spree isn't very good, even with an effective cooldown of somewhere around 1 minute (which is what you can expect with Restless Blades).

Valustria · 10/12/10, 1:34 AM

Originally Posted by Feist-Mok

It's 2 seconds per combo point, only from damage-dealing finishers (Rupture, Evisc basically for Combat).

If it's 2 seconds per CP for every damage-dealing finisher, I would think having to refresh SnD less often would be great, and thus the SnD glyph really useful even beyond the positive impact on our quality of life. How many more damage-dealing finishers, or how many more CP per damage-dealing finishers, can we fit into a cycle with those extra seconds every SnD?

Feist-Mok · 10/12/10, 1:35 AM

Originally Posted by Valustria

If it's 2 seconds per CP for every damage-dealing finisher, I would think having to refresh SnD less often would be great, and thus the SnD glyph really useful even beyond the positive impact on our quality of life. How many more damage-dealing finishers, or how many more CP per damage-dealing finishers, can we fit into a cycle with those extra seconds?

Not enough to make the Slice and Dice glyph better than Adrenaline Rush, according to the existing math that's out there. Remember, Adrenaline Rush increases not just Energy Regen, but Haste now, and is also affected by Restless Blades for an ever shrinking cooldown. It's a very strong glyph.

ILjXYZ · 10/12/10, 1:39 AM

Ambushu, I've found from my testing that what you posted is generally the rotation for Combat. However, my biggest problem with Combat is the overwhelming potential to cap energy, especially during Adrenaline Rush. I know this has been discussed previously in this thread regarding Assassination, but I have yet to see any discussion about Combat energy capping.

Following the crude EP weights on the first page I've regemed and reforged to the expertise cap, then haste/hit. I ended up with 1162 haste and 445 hit. With Vitality's 25% increase to energy and that amount of haste triggering plenty of Combat Potency and Relentless Strikes procs the energy steadily generates during the normal rotation and is fairly manageable. Once Adrenaline Rush is activated as close to 0 energy as possible though it literally feels like a losing race between the global cooldown and the absolute glut of energy flooding in for 20 seconds (glyphed). I am absolutely spamming the rotation as fast as my fingers can hit the keys while watching my energy slowly creep up to the cap. And, despite my best efforts, if Relentless Strikes procs off of a Rupture or Slice and Dice refresh it is almost certain that I'll cap at least for a second or two while I'm trying to burn the energy down with Sinister Strike.

I tried reforging haste down to just over 1000 haste converting the excess into white hit. I found that after several 15 minute stints on the heroic training dummy my energy issue during Adrenaline Rush was a bit less hectic, my dps was up to 400 dps lower than my previous tests with the higher amount of haste. I understand that haste is weighted heavier than white hit so it should be obvious that switching haste to white hit would be a dps loss, but how could capping more vs. capping less (or not at all) for 20 seconds every 45 seconds or so be a dps increase?

Sorry if this post is less than scientific, but I wanted to open this issue up to discussion amongst folks more intelligent than me.

Valustria · 10/12/10, 1:40 AM

Originally Posted by Feist-Mok

Not enough to make the Slice and Dice glyph better than Adrenaline Rush, according to the existing math that's out there. Remember, Adrenaline Rush increases not just Energy Regen, but Haste now, and is also affected by Restless Blades for an ever shrinking cooldown. It's a very strong glyph.

Ahhh... well, in that case I would simply question whether SnD or Rupture is better, as my experience in TBC and WotLK has always favored SnD. I guess this is exactly why we need/have spreadsheets, though...

P.S. Unrelated to anything here, tell Zoe I said she gems like a noob! (Even if she doesn't.) = P

Ambushu · 10/12/10, 1:44 AM

Originally Posted by Danzir

Thank you for taking the time to do this. I am curious if you also have tested out assassination and sub specs?
Unbuffed, right now on live, I am about 6400dps as combat on the boss target dummy - so those numbers of yours are rather disheartening. If you have infact tested Sub/Assassin - how do they stack against each other?

Unfortunately no, I will not be testing out other specs. Unless I am absolutely forced for whatever reason to go another spec because of some unforeseeable event like when the patch goes live tomorrow combat suddenly completely breaks, then I will go another spec. Other than that, my heart is with combat and its what ive grown accustomed too.

Originally Posted by ILjXYZ

Ambushu, I've found from my testing that what you posted is generally the rotation for Combat. However, my biggest problem with Combat is the overwhelming potential to cap energy, especially during Adrenaline Rush. I know this has been discussed previously in this thread regarding Assassination, but I have yet to see any discussion about Combat energy capping.

Following the crude EP weights on the first page I've regemed and reforged to the expertise cap, then haste/hit. I ended up with 1162 haste and 445 hit. With Vitality's 25% increase to energy and that amount of haste triggering plenty of Combat Potency and Relentless Strikes procs the energy steadily generates during the normal rotation and is fairly manageable. Once Adrenaline Rush is activated as close to 0 energy as possible though it literally feels like a losing race between the global cooldown and the absolute glut of energy flooding in for 20 seconds (glyphed). I am absolutely spamming the rotation as fast as my fingers can hit the keys while watching my energy slowly creep up to the cap. And, despite my best efforts, if Relentless Strikes procs off of a Rupture or Slice and Dice refresh it is almost certain that I'll cap at least for a second or two while I'm trying to burn the energy down with Sinister Strike.

I tried reforging haste down to just over 1000 haste converting the excess into white hit. I found that after several 15 minute stints on the heroic training dummy my energy issue during Adrenaline Rush was a bit less hectic, my dps was up to 400 dps lower than my previous tests with the higher amount of haste. I understand that haste is weighted heavier than white hit so it should be obvious that switching haste to white hit would be a dps loss, but how could capping more vs. capping less (or not at all) for 20 seconds every 45 seconds or so be a dps increase?

Sorry if this post is less than scientific, but I wanted to open this issue up to discussion amongst folks more intelligent than me.

I know this much. The more haste you have, the faster you will regen energy. They are tied together now. And from my research that I have done on this forum and elsewhere on the web, it seems that it is IMPOSSIBLE to reach a haste cap as a rogue currently. So if you have a ton of haste and then cast AR, you are going to be capping your energy out like mad. Thats not even including Bloodlust/Heroism.

damagedone · 10/12/10, 3:27 AM

Originally Posted by Steale

Concerning Sub's Initiative vs. Premed, as long as you are getting in more than 2 Ambushes per SDance, Initiative returns more CP's than Premed, at the cost of an extra talent point, which given the fillers, shouldn't be an issue. Of course, taking both Initiative and Premed is preferable.

Edit: Has it been confirmed anywhere that Recuperate is coming out pre-Cata release? I hadn't seen any post hinting that it would be, and upon seeing Aldriana's spec with 3/3 in Energetic Recovery, I thought I'd take another look and still have found nothing.

Premed has the added advantage of being able to put up 2 CPs on a target you aren't in combat with. This means you can trigger a Recup or SnD pre-rolling before a fight.

Initiative has a problem. And its name is HAT. The question really is whether or not those extra Initiative CPs will be used or not. Still given the choices, there is 1 "filler" point in the Sub tree. And technically Initiative is a DPS talent. Might as well slot it in for 50% chance.

Erotica · 10/12/10, 3:40 AM

Since there will be no new mutilate spreadsheets for 4.0.1, and I will most definitely go mutilate, I was wondering if anybody could give me the formula to determine my critcap once the patch goes live.

Armanewb · 10/12/10, 3:46 AM

Originally Posted by damagedone

Initiative has a problem. And its name is HAT. The question really is whether or not those extra Initiative CPs will be used or not. Still given the choices, there is 1 "filler" point in the Sub tree. And technically Initiative is a DPS talent. Might as well slot it in for 50% chance.

Given the "worst case scenario" of Ruthlessness giving you 1CP and a 3CP Ambush on top of a HAT CP, which isn't even attainable in 4.0.1, you still have the 2 seconds of HAT's ICD to use a finisher. Let's say you use a GCD to enter stealth and that gives you a HAT CP right afterwards, putting you at 2CP after Ruthlessness. You Ambush for 3CP, immediately queueing a finisher after Ambush to use the 5 generated CPs before HAT gives you another one. Even in this idealized situation, assuming you have no wastage of time, you are able to utilize the Initiative + Ambush, Ruthlessness and HAT without wasting a single CP.

Of course this is moot since you cannot take Ruthlessness in 4.0.1, meaning there is even more leeway (another 2 seconds).