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Old 10/24/10, 11:35 PM   #466
Grunge
Don Flamenco
 
Grunge's Avatar
 
Human Rogue
 
Kor'gall (EU)
Originally Posted by Dek View Post
I will say, I have heroic 4pc and heroic Ikfirus Sack and Gangrenous Leggings. I reforged/regemmed all of it just to see which would come out on top.

As far as raw stat allocation, I ended up with a better mix of stats from the 4pc. The 2pc with Ikfirus was very heavy on hit, so a lot of my haste I got from the 4pc was pushed into white hit.
Actually item budget wise Cultist's+4pc is the best combination due to the excessive stamina on Ikfirus (see here).

Cultist's vs Aldriana's are identical, the only difference is in the respective Tier pieces.

Tier Shoulders have Hit, while Tier Gloves have Haste and since it's easy to reforge crit->hit, the haste makes Tier Gloves+Cultist's the superior combination.

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

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Old 10/25/10, 8:39 PM   #467
Neves
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Burning Blade (EU)
Originally Posted by Grunge View Post
Actually item budget wise Cultist's+4pc is the best combination due to the excessive stamina on Ikfirus (see here).

Cultist's vs Aldriana's are identical, the only difference is in the respective Tier pieces.

Tier Shoulders have Hit, while Tier Gloves have Haste and since it's easy to reforge crit->hit, the haste makes Tier Gloves+Cultist's the superior combination.
And how on earth will you compensate the loss of 94 expertise? However i put it, you gonna drop Ikfirus chest for the tier one, ending up with a loss of 106 exp. That will result on having only 106 exp from tier pants, with no more than 94 exp to compensate for cap.

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Old 10/25/10, 8:42 PM   #468
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
I'll give you a hint: the answer starts with "re" and ends with "forging"

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Old 10/26/10, 11:19 AM   #469
damagedone
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Zangarmarsh
Originally Posted by Honzu View Post
I've seen several times that debuffs apply dynamically, do buffs (Trinkets, MoS, Bandit's Guile) apply dynamically as well?
Was messing around with this. But not MoS ironically, lol.

Vendetta updates Rupture dynamically. So does Hemo.

However, increases/decreases in AP, Agi, Crit do not. (and I'd assume Haste, although it has no effect on our dots anyway). Things like trinkets, Weapon/Enchant procs, raid buffs/procs. The Bleed keeps the value of the first tick regardless of how your AP changes for better or worse.

This means in an ideal situation you want all your proc buffs up at once when you put the bleed up. This typically happens right at the start of a fight.

If I remember I'll check out MoS. If I had to guess, I'd assume it works like Vendetta and Hemo, as they are flat % increases. But who knows.

Rumor is that Blizz wants dots/bleeds to update every tick in Cata. I'd prefer this tbh.

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Old 10/26/10, 12:11 PM   #470
Dark-Empty
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Nordrassil
Originally Posted by x1o8x View Post
i have a question. current theory is that we would reach expertise cap and hit cap before reforging the rest to haste right? i have seen some rogues, or rather quite a number of rogues are actually not hit capped, but they give an almost equal dps to me who is hit capped. though their dps isn't as high as mine, i'd probably say it was due to gears, but could it be that reforging to mastery gives a better result compared to hit cap?
I believe what you are looking for is on the first page of this thread. Aldriana's post.

But what is says is expertise cap and spell hit cap (not white), then haste and hit only where you can't put haste.
Note this is combat only.

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Old 10/26/10, 12:42 PM   #471
AeonNightmare
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Rogue
 
Earthen Ring
Originally Posted by x1o8x View Post
hmmm,

Stat Assass. Combat
Agi 2.8 2.88
Crit 1.55 1.62
Spell Hit 3.2 2.38
White Hit 1.8 1.69
Expertise 2.6 2.20
Haste 2.2 2.25
Mastery 1.9 0.60

according to the EP value, mastery seems to be the better option, but iirc there were suggestions to go for white hit cap than mastery, either i saw it in EJ, or pverogues.blogspot.com.

however, does mastery only becomes superior at a certain rating?
He said that it was for combat. Mastery for combat is .6, so I'm pretty sure you're looking at assassination, and unless I am seriously mistaken we still aren't going for the white hit cap unless we happen to find ourselves already near it from gear. Although if that is the case, we should be reforging it to haste if possible.

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Old 10/26/10, 12:53 PM   #472
x1o8x
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Thaurissan
Originally Posted by AeonNightmare View Post
He said that it was for combat. Mastery for combat is .6, so I'm pretty sure you're looking at assassination, and unless I am seriously mistaken we still aren't going for the white hit cap unless we happen to find ourselves already near it from gear. Although if that is the case, we should be reforging it to haste if possible.
hmm, judging from your quote "unless we happen to find outselves already near it from gear", does that mean mastery is superior at a certain rating and/or white hit cap becomes better when most of my gears are giving hit? without any reforge, i am already at 561 hit, thus i needed a little more reforge to actually reach white cap, where as if i reforge them to mastery, would i actually be downgrading myself for not having enough mastery, since mastery acts a little bit like expertise, every certain amount of mastery adds damage by 2.5% rather than damage increase per mastery rating point

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Old 10/26/10, 1:02 PM   #473
AeonNightmare
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Rogue
 
Earthen Ring
Originally Posted by x1o8x View Post
since mastery acts a little bit like expertise, every certain amount of mastery adds damage by 2.5% rather than damage increase per mastery rating point
No, I meant that the only time you should consider trying to reach the white cap is when your hit is already close to it, sort of like your example, but you shouldn't be reforging to mastery as combat. Currently mastery is very weak for combat, hence the .6 EP rating. From reforging you should be reforging expertise over the cap and crit to haste. Unless the piece of gear already has haste, then you should reforge it to hit. Also, note that the EP value of haste is higher than white hit, so if you have a piece of gear with large amount of hit and that piece of gear doesn't have haste, reforging it to haste would be an upgrade.

Also, to what I have quoted from above, unless it is different that assassination's mastery, 1 point in mastery will indeed increase the damage by 2.5%, but partial points from rating will still increase the damage. Example: 5 mastery would increase the damage by 12.5%, 5.65 mastery would increase the damage by 14.125%(5.65 * 2.5).

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Old 10/26/10, 1:05 PM   #474
Kroyfel
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Rogue
 
The Maelstrom (EU)
Originally Posted by x1o8x View Post
hmm, judging from your quote "unless we happen to find outselves already near it from gear", does that mean mastery is superior at a certain rating and/or white hit cap becomes better when most of my gears are giving hit? without any reforge, i am already at 561 hit, thus i needed a little more reforge to actually reach white cap, where as if i reforge them to mastery, would i actually be downgrading myself for not having enough mastery, since mastery acts a little bit like expertise, every certain amount of mastery adds damage by 2.5% rather than damage increase per mastery rating point
Every point of mastery rating gives full benefit. You don't have to worry about specific amounts.

As for hit rating, if you are at 561 hit before reforging, you don't have to worry about getting any more hit. Expertise is still the best stat to reforge to, then haste -> mastery (for mutilate) -> hit -> crit.

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Old 10/26/10, 1:42 PM   #475
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Since there seems to be some confusion about Mutilate stat priorities, let me take a minute to clear it up. The EP values in the first post are based on BIS gear, already socketed and reforged in accordance to those stat weights. Hence, while it's true that reforging to mastery raises the relative value of hit (and so on) - we've already *done* that. Reforging haste and then mastery over hit does lower the value of mastery and raise the value of hit - but even after their values converge in that fashion, mastery is *still* ahead. Before reforging to mastery, it was *further* ahead.

Hence, in terms of reforging priority, the answer will basically always be spell hit cap > expertise cap > haste > mastery > white hit. The end. There is very little ambiguity here. Socketing is always Delicate/Deft/Glinting, matching socket colors. While I'm not going to say its impossible to stack stats in such a away that the order changes, I will say that it is really pretty rare. 99% of you don't need to worry about how the stats interact or how much of what stat you have - if you make the spell hit and expertise caps, and then reforge haste and mastery, you really can't go too far wrong.

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Old 10/26/10, 3:01 PM   #476
_Greel_
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Burning Legion (EU)
I just wanted to point out a rather interesting observation. Not sure if it was mentioned before, couldn't find it.

For AoE, and general trash that lives more then 20 seconds, you will find it beneficial to have your thrown weapon poisoned with Deadly Poison, since it procs your main hand poison as well. ( instant or wounding).

Assassination will benefit significantly from this, while combat and sub might find wounding poison more beneficial on FoK weapon( If the range bug has been fixed).

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Old 10/26/10, 3:21 PM   #477
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
For Assassination it's a possibility, though it's not as clear-cut as you might think - but lets look at (for instance) Combat for a moment. Combat regens about 20 energy per second, and FoK costs 35 energy; hence, in 20 seconds, you regen 400 energy, plus the 100 you start with, meaning you'll get around 14 FoKs off. Each one has a 30% chance to proc DP, which means you expect to have about 4.2 procs of DP per target. Which is, sadly, rather less than the 5 you need to start proccing MH poison. Subtlety is largely in the same boat - Slaughter From the Shadows makes FoK cheaper, but the lack of Vitality means you have less energy regen, and then net result is that you still don't really get enough DP procs to see MH procs.

For Assassination, energy regen is likely around 14 per second (assuming you don't have rupture running, which for a 20 second AoE pack is usually a good assumption), plus 120 starting energy, works out to about 400 energy and thus 11 FoKs in 20 seconds. Each has a 50% chance to proc your DP from the OH, so we *do* actually get up to 5 stacks right around the 20 second mark. Hence, on a 20 second fight, we do actually get bonus MH procs from DP on our ranged weapon; in particular, in 11 FoKs we expect to get 5.5 MH poison procs from FoK, versus 4.24 if we just put IP on our thrown weapon directly. So for a 20 second (11 FoK) fight, yes, DP is perhaps a bit better. However, now lets look at, say, a 8 FoK fight: now we get 8 DP procs (4 from OH, 4 from thrown) and thus 3 MH poison procs; meanwhile, if we just put IP on our thrown weapon, we'd get about 3.1 MH procs.

So, in short: on a long enough fight, DP will pass IP for Assassination - the crossover is probably around 8 FoKs, or a little under 15 seconds. Since fights of this duration are actually somewhat common, it may well make sense to make the switch. However, for Combat and Subtlety, its not even *close* to worth it.

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Old 10/26/10, 5:23 PM   #478
Skansk
Glass Joe
 
Troll Rogue
 
Shu'halo
Also, I would think that DP on the thrown distributes DP to the trash faster, activating Master Poisoner buff sooner for +8% spell damage, improving rDPS.

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Old 10/26/10, 5:51 PM   #479
Ayliex
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Rogue
 
Silvermoon (EU)
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
...you'll get around 14 FoKs off. Each one has a 30% chance to proc DP, which means you expect to have about 4.2 procs of DP per target.
I think you assumed no DP on offhand weapon or just forgot about it. If I'm not mistaken, you can expect more DP procs. For one FoK it would be:

0.3^2 = 0.09 to have 2 DP procs
2 * 0.3 * 0.7 = 0.42 to have exactly one DP proc

So, you could expect 0.09 + 2 * 0.42 = 0.93 DP procs from one FoK and reach 5 stack earlier (around 6th FoK).

Last edited by Ayliex : 10/26/10 at 5:53 PM. Reason: typo

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Old 10/26/10, 5:54 PM   #480
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
I think I assumed that your OH weapon poison doesn't proc when you FoK as Combat. And what's more, that's a completely legitimate assumption, because it doesn't.

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