The 4.0.1 Rogue FAQ - Page 37

Feist-Mok · 11/03/10, 2:22 PM

Originally Posted by Borvenge

Thank you. This is the sort of detailed answer I was hoping for.

I have one other question concerning weapon selection: Conventional wisdom held that the MH weapon should be slower and hit harder. Higher damage ranges were better than faster, softer hitting weapons. I also read that WP procs much more frequently on slower weapons. But the spreadsheet is showing that Rib Spreader is a better MH choice than Bloodvenom Blade. Is that just because RS has haste instead of the hit found on BB?

Mainly, I am wondering if we still want slower weapons for MH, all other things being equal.

Slow MH's are still king with no Mastery on gear. With the changes to Mastery in current beta builds, and with enough Mastery on gear, this is mitigated to some extent, such that, as Mastery rises, this may become less true, but if it were to happen, I wouldn't expect it to last...

Regardless however, you basically never want to use a Dagger in the MH, as normalization hits daggers far harder than other weapon types and your Sinister Strikes will hit for substantially less damage. In addition, you'll lose MH Poison procs.

By 'the spreadsheet' do you mean Shadowcraft? If so, it doesn't at this time know the difference between a Sword, a Dagger, and a Polearm, and similarly does not yet look at Weapon Speed or even (I don't think) DPS. Essentially, it's not going to help you make Weapon related decisions until the Calcs module is done, and as far as I know, that's being built with an eye towards level 85, not level 80, so the answer to the question of 'when' is... probably never.

ieatpaperbag · 11/03/10, 2:29 PM

Originally Posted by Borvenge

Thank you. This is the sort of detailed answer I was hoping for.

I have one other question concerning weapon selection: Conventional wisdom held that the MH weapon should be slower and hit harder. Higher damage ranges were better than faster, softer hitting weapons. I also read that WP procs much more frequently on slower weapons. But the spreadsheet is showing that Rib Spreader is a better MH choice than Bloodvenom Blade. Is that just because RS has haste instead of the hit found on BB?

Mainly, I am wondering if we still want slower weapons for MH, all other things being equal.

In short yes, you do want a slower MH as a combat rogue (with the current mastery and its value). I was not able to repeat what you are seeing with high-end or low-end ICC gear (I am assuming you are using Lightshadow’s sheet). In both cases Bloodvenom was clearly superior to Rib Spreader in the MH. The only thing that comes to mind is make sure you’re changing “MH Avg. Damage” to (Top-end damage + Low-end damage)/2 not the DPS of the weapon and changing the “MH Speed” cell accordingly.

You are correct in that because of PPM mechanics, WP procs more frequently on a slower weapon then on a faster weapon (92.86% for a 2.6 speed weapon and 64.29% for a 1.8 speed weapon).

NinJa0v0 · 11/08/10, 6:11 AM

Originally Posted by jerrysimon

We need 32.79 hit rating now per 1% hit chance.(3.3.5,LV80)
And we need 30.7548 hit rating on cata per 1% hit chance.(4.0,LV80)

So the white hit cap is:
3/3 precision:646
2/3 precision:707
1/3 precision:769
0/3 precision:830

Do I miss something?

30.7548*21 = 645.8508 = 646
30.7548*23 = 707.3604 = 708
30.7548*25 = 768.8700 = 769
30.7548*27 = 830.3796 = 831

seems some different in 2/3 & 0/3 precision
or the hit rating is not 30.7548 ?

kpts44 · 11/08/10, 6:15 AM

Originally Posted by NinJa0v0

30.7548*21 = 645.8508 = 646
30.7548*23 = 707.3604 = 708
30.7548*25 = 768.8700 = 769
30.7548*27 = 830.3796 = 831

seems some different in 2/3 & 0/3 precision
or the hit rating is not 30.7548 ?

Well, it simply depends on the type of rounding you do... Anyway, 1 point difference is roughly 0.03% hit (one hit every 3000), which will hardly be noticeable.

Schmoopy · 11/08/10, 9:30 AM

Shouldn't have to worry about how you round it. Shouldn't be going for the white hit cap anyway

sp00n · 11/08/10, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Schmoopy

Shouldn't have to worry about how you round it. Shouldn't be going for the white hit cap anyway

Well as combat there's really no other way than to reforge for hit, as mastery is our lowest stat.
I actually did exceed the hit cap once as I didn't pay attention and had to check what the actual cap was to evaluate my options.

Icelink89 · 11/09/10, 11:08 AM

From reading here + on other forums, Ive understood that it is now common for combat rogues to have daggers in their OH.

Is it because they removed weapon specialization or something? Whats the reason behind it?

Thanks in advance

kpts44 · 11/09/10, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Icelink89

From reading here + on other forums, Ive understood that it is now common for combat rogues to have daggers in their OH.

Is it because they removed weapon specialization or something? Whats the reason behind it?

Thanks in advance

For combat, fast off hands are usually better (more hits, so more energy regen procs) and daggers have 1.4 speed. Other weapons cannot have less than 1.5 speed so equipping a dagger can be a small increase in energy regen. Now that weapon specialisation has disappeared there is no reason to use a sword (except if you are human) or an axe (except if you are an orc).

• Aldriana · 11/09/10, 12:52 PM

The caveat, of course, is that Main Gauche is normalized, so will hit significantly harder with a sword/axe/mace/fist than it will with a dagger of comparable speed. It remains to be determined whether a fast (1.5) nondagger OH or a 1.4 dagger will be better in general.

paulsen · 11/09/10, 2:54 PM

Isn't it safe to update the FAQ questions about wich spec that performs the best? I think it's pretty safe to say that Combat is not one of them.

Sh0v4h · 11/09/10, 7:52 PM

Right now, after the last changes, Combat is the best spec in terms of dps. 1-1.2k ahead Mutilate in dummy for example, and even more with raid buffs.
This happens with a premade char full 359 items. Combat reforged crit to haste and hit, Mutilate reforged crit to haste and mastery.

Elimite · 11/10/10, 2:38 AM

I have 2/3 Precision. I'm switching out gear and my hit drops from 342 to 326. But the tooltip still shows 0.00% chance to miss on a lvl 83 boss. Is the tooltip wrong? or is the yellow hit cap lower than thought?

• Aldriana · 11/10/10, 3:30 AM

Yellow hit cap and spell hit cap are not the same thing. Make sure you're looking at the right one.

Rerox · 11/10/10, 3:56 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

The caveat, of course, is that Main Gauche is normalized, so will hit significantly harder with a sword/axe/mace/fist than it will with a dagger of comparable speed. It remains to be determined whether a fast (1.5) nondagger OH or a 1.4 dagger will be better in general.

Are there even fast Weapons other than daggers in Cataclysm? As far as I could tell from all datamined and dropped loot on beta, the fastest non-dagger weapons for rogues are all of 2.6 speed, while daggers are either 1.8 or 1.4 speed.

So in the end it seems to come down to either slow/slow with 2x 2.6 weapons, like Enhancement Shamans (which I doubt will ever be viable for Combat) or slow/fast with a dagger in the offhand. Yet it still remains to be determined whether a 1.4 or 1.8 dagger will be the best choice for Combat at 85.

sp00n · 11/10/10, 5:37 AM

Neither WoWHead nor MMO-Champ list a weapon faster than 2.4 that is not a dagger. And even these 2.4 are only test items, all 'normal' ones have a speed of 2.6.

Of course this could still change, it is however quite significant that no drop has been discovered yet.

Feels a bit like the left hand doesn't know what the right one's doing, giving us a mastery that uses the off hand and then basically forcing us to use daggers all the way which are penalized for their faster speed.
Or giving us the alternative of using slow/slow, which contradicts our poison and combat potency mechanics.

In terms of slow or fast dagger, I'd dare to say that faster is still better. Exactly because Main Gauche is normalized, speed doesn't matter as much for it, whereas it still heavily does so for poisons and Combat Potency.
Haven't had a chance to check out the buffed MG though as I'm not in the beta.