ShadowCraft: Rogue spreadsheet for 4.0 - Page 60

Shadefoot · 01/19/12, 5:16 PM

In using Shadowcraft this evening, Fear is suddenly coming up way lower than expected in the list - between Miniature Winter Veil Tree and Dragonscorn Mace. The Sleeper (stage 2 version) is only a couple of places above it. Is this what was meant by point 1 in the known issues thread or is this something different?

Vengeance and The Dreamer are still in their expected places if that is relevant.

Sehjiro · 01/19/12, 5:20 PM

Is No'Kalad still being overrated in Shadowcraft. Presently even the raidfinder version is showing me about a 500 dps increase over Fear.

jsz · 01/19/12, 5:29 PM

Originally Posted by Shadefoot

In using Shadowcraft this evening, Fear is suddenly coming up way lower than expected in the list - between Miniature Winter Veil Tree and Dragonscorn Mace. The Sleeper (stage 2 version) is only a couple of places above it. Is this what was meant by point 1 in the known issues thread or is this something different?

Vengeance and The Dreamer are still in their expected places if that is relevant.

The 45% damage to SS/RvS isn't calculated until equipped.

dinesh · 01/19/12, 8:18 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Works fine for me. You sure its not just the fact that your chest isn't currently enchanted?

Durr, I guess I forgot to apply it before logging, somehow. Please direct me to the nearest home lobotomy center.

Shadefoot · 01/20/12, 5:09 AM

Originally Posted by jsz

The 45% damage to SS/RvS isn't calculated until equipped.

OK then I am confused, I HAVE Fear equipped and it is showing that low against everything else, making it impossible to easily compare to other items in its ilvl range like it used to be able to do.

Bledoc · 01/20/12, 7:18 AM

Originally Posted by Shadefoot

OK then I am confused, I HAVE Fear equipped and it is showing that low against everything else, making it impossible to easily compare to other items in its ilvl range like it used to be able to do.

As was said before, and in the sticky ShadowCraft Known Issues (Updated Jan 19)
In the item comparison Fear is not ranked as it will be once equipped. This is the case regardless of if it is equipped or not. However you can compare the displayed EP when equipped to items on the list if you prefer. Its really not that much of an issue as the EP comparison is done based on your current EP values, which will change when using a new gear setup (which is the best way of comparing - equip new weapon, autoreforge and compare dps to what it was prior to weapon change)

Shadefoot · 01/20/12, 8:19 AM

The info in the sticky has changed since I first queried it, now making it clearer that the rankings are off. But, as you say, I can compare direct EP or DPS on reforge as alternatives so I'll continue to do that.

Pancake3 · 01/20/12, 3:19 PM

I'm sorry if this isn't the place to ask this, but I noticed something that I found a bit odd when using shadowcraft. Now that the No'Kaled issue has been resolved I decided to swap my Fear for the LFR No'Kaled for the ~400 dps upgrade it was showing as. The thing that surprised me was that when I put the LFR No'Kaled in my mainhand it increased the ep value of my spell hit by a noticeable amount, it went from being about 0.1 lower than that of haste to being tied with haste at 1.60

My first assumption was that this must have been a result of the No'Kaled proc working off of spell hit and thus increased the value of that stat as a result. But then after trying to look something up I ended up in one of the Enhance shaman forums on this site and one of the recent changes listed for their sim program was making the No'Kaled proc unable to miss:
EnhSim for Cataclysm

So basically I'm a bit at odds. Shadowcraft seems to imply that the proc can miss, yet the enhance shaman sim is modeling it as though it cannot. Which is correct, or is there something else going on for why these 2 tools are showing what they're showing?

♦ Viper · 01/20/12, 5:11 PM

https://github.com/Aldriana/ShadowCr...c_data.py#L201

    'nokaled_the_elements_of_death': {
        'stat': 'spell_damage',
        'value': 9567.5,
        'duration': 0,
        'max_stacks': 0,
        'proc_name': 'Iceblast Shadowblast Flameblast',
        'behaviours': {'default': 'nokaled_the_elements_of_death'}
    },

https://github.com/Aldriana/ShadowCr...init__.py#L524

    def update_with_damaging_proc(self, proc, attacks_per_second, crit_rates):
        if proc.icd:
            frequency = 1. / (proc.icd + 0.5 / self.get_procs_per_second(proc, attacks_per_second, crit_rates))
        else:
            frequency = self.get_procs_per_second(proc, attacks_per_second, crit_rates)

        attacks_per_second.setdefault(proc.proc_name, 0)
        if proc.stat == 'spell_damage':
            attacks_per_second[proc.proc_name] += frequency * self.spell_hit_chance()
        elif proc.stat == 'physical_damage':
            attacks_per_second[proc.proc_name] += frequency * self.strike_hit_chance

(and there's no special-case stuff for No'kaled except for making it a MH-only proc)

So ShadowCraft is definitely applying spell hit chance to the proc itself. EnhSim - enhsim - View Issue #8953: 4.3 Item Information appears to include logs with low/no spell hit and no misses on the actual procs themselves, which was the motivation for the EnhSim change.

• Aldriana · 01/20/12, 7:16 PM

Well. it'll be easy enough to doublecheck - just have someone strip naked, equip No'kaled, and whack on the boss-level training dummy for a couple hundred procs. But yes, if it can't miss (or uses 1h melee hit, or some such) that would increase the value of the proc somewhat and reduce the value of hit.

Pancake3 · 01/20/12, 10:15 PM

I did so just a little while ago (well, not completely naked but took off everything that had hit rating on it). The only hit chance I had was the 6% from talents, I got a total of 214 procs during my test, 84 flame (all hits), 67 shadow (all hits) and 63 ice (2 crits the rest hits).

Unfortunately I do not have logs or anything else besides my own word, and I know that 214 isn't exactly a conclusive sample size. But I would have expected that with 11% spell miss that I'd have gotten at least 1 miss out of 214. Even if it went by melee hit chance I'd have sill expected to see a couple misses with 2% miss chance (though that one's admittedly less conclusive).

Is there special credit for finding another issue with No'Kaled's proc modeling after it was finally fixed :P

• Aldriana · 01/20/12, 11:23 PM

The probability of getting 214 hits in a row with an 11% miss chance is .000000000015, so that sounds pretty conclusive in saying that it doesn't use the spell miss chance. 1H melee hit and its 2% miss chance would yield 214 hits about 1.3% of the time - so pretty unlikely, if not quite completely impossible.

All that said, I'd still like to see an actual log posted if possible. Not that I don't trust you, it just helps avoid confusion down the road if all evidence is made as explicit as possible.

Furtim · 01/21/12, 2:32 AM

Tested while naked, except for normal No'Kaled, using the standard combat spec.

1107 hits, 100 procs, no proc misses.
No'Kaled Proc Sample.zip

I don't see this having much of an effect tho, since as Combat we're already going for the Spell Hit Cap. At most, it should only lower the Spell Hit EP a little, but not enough to move it below Mastery.

*EDIT* Just did the same test on the PTR just to make sure, the proc still cannot miss.

Alash · 01/23/12, 5:30 AM

With the increase in haste rating and thus energy capping I'm starting to wonder if it's better for rogues to run unglyphed tricks - i.e. paying 15 energy to receive another +10% damage. I don't see this in Shadowcraft currently, and of course before making such a feature it would need to be viable.

The question is, what testing would be needed to prove the need for a "Sending/receiving unglyphed Tricks" feature in Shadowcraft?

Tumblebeer · 01/23/12, 6:59 AM

You could get a pretty decent estimation by simply unglyphing tricks and multiplying the value of reciving tricks (in the settings tab) by 1.5, assuming the person you tricks has the same dps you do.

Edit: It appears shadowcraft assumes you get an unglyphed tricks already. Glyph of tricks is on average 1% of your total dps however, so you can easily compare the value of the tricks glyph to 1% of your total untricked dps.