Assassination Guide for Cata [12/01/2011] - Page 12

• Aldriana · 01/01/11, 6:34 PM

You're right that vanish doesn't trigger a GCD - for some reason I was thinking it did. However, there's definitely something of a gap between when you vanish and when you can get a Garrote to go off.

I'd say the simplest way to measure it would be get all haste buffs up (SnD for sure, Windfury if you can manage it) autoattack a dummy, and then vanish/garrote as fast as you can and compare the spacing of the autoattacks before the vanish versus the ones that span the vanish. This will require some fairly manual parsing of the log, and multiple trials will be needed to see how consistent the gap is. I'd probably be worth having different people with different pings test it as well.

Furazoio · 01/01/11, 6:49 PM

Changing subject from Elusiveness and Openers to Trinkets

I tried hard to find infos about Darkmoon Card: Hurricane with almost no sucess for Rogues.

I am assuming that EP values in this guide considers only 1PPM for this trinket but for Warriors and Shamans it seems that the trinket in fact procs more than that.

Keeping it in mind it might be much better than we are supposing. So anyone did a good test on it?

Thanks

Hakan · 01/02/11, 4:36 AM

So onto a question about trinkets. I understand that not all trinkets are listed on the priority list, which is why I'd like to ask about the jewelcrafting trinket. With standard hit and a 1425 agility increase when active, where would it fall on the list? Just wondering so I can get an idea and not fall behind on hit rating.

fourdots · 01/02/11, 5:14 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Don't forget that Garrote costs your 50 energy in the first place, so what you're doing is spending 14 energy for (in your example) ~20k damage and 1 combo point instead of 55 energy for a somewhat smaller amount of damage and 2.6(ish) combo points. And I admit, that looks like it favors Garrote somewhat - but its unclear by how much.

Something else to consider is that by opening with Garotte, thereby proccing venomous wounds, we also get the increased energy regen right off the bat, which in turn allows us to spend our initial combo point(s) on S&D, and not have to be in such a hurry to get Rupture going.

• Aldriana · 01/02/11, 6:23 PM

Not sure I agree with that point. Getting a Garrote up is better than nothing from a Venomous Wounds perspective, but having both Garrote and Rupture up is better still. So getting a Rupture up is still a rather good idea, even if you are opening with Garrote.

Also note that, again Garrote costs 50 energy, so by the end of it you actually have less energy for Mutilate and finishers than you would have if you had not Garroted. What Garotte gives you is not truly extra energy - its extra damage, and a single combo point that's fairly cheap, but not extra energy by any reasonable definition.

MikeJ714 · 01/03/11, 2:34 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Also note that, again Garrote costs 50 energy, so by the end of it you actually have less energy for Mutilate and finishers

In the long run, I've found Garrote to actually cost 0-10 energy. I usually get 40-50 energy return through VW with it; so with that on top of not wasting combo points with Mutilate as an opener, wouldn't you technically get more energy AND a lot more damage? I went on the training dummy and did 10 runs of garroting + auto attacking to get my posions up so VW would proc, by the end of garrote VW had done close to 20k damage, garrote around 15k, and an average of 45 energy returned - Which means that I did 45k damage for an average of 5 energy, plus didn't waste combo points on SnD by using Mutilate.

I realize that 10 times on a dummy isn't much - especially in an uncontrolled test (had my full gear on, with proc trinkets etc) - But I just wanted to get some quick numbers.

I've always found it to feel a lot quicker when you Garrote -> SnD -> Mut -> Rupture then start your rotation, compared to Mut -> SnD -> 4+ Rupture -> start rotation.

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Not sure I agree with that point. Getting a Garrote up is better than nothing from a Venomous Wounds perspective, but having both Garrote and Rupture up is better still. So getting a Rupture up is still a rather good idea, even if you are opening with Garrote.

Definitely gotta agree with that though. There really isn't a point in stalling putting your rupture up. The VW damage alone on top of your energy regen requires it.

Bladebender · 01/03/11, 3:51 AM

I dont know if it matters a whole lot but since you need to be behind the target for garrot and all to often the boss turns unexpectedly, opening with mutilate would give you just a few more seconds on the boss and not risking wasting time on positioning.And again, we're talking a mather of 2 seconds

Authopsy · 01/03/11, 4:04 AM

Originally Posted by Hakan

So onto a question about trinkets. I understand that not all trinkets are listed on the priority list, which is why I'd like to ask about the jewelcrafting trinket. With standard hit and a 1425 agility increase when active, where would it fall on the list? Just wondering so I can get an idea and not fall behind on hit rating.

Well if you are above yellow hit but below spell hit you could get the values pretty easily using the EP of the front page of this guide. The trinket has a 2min cooldown and lasts 20s, so it has a uptime of 16,6%.

285 * 1.4 + (1425 * 0.16 * 2.6 *1.05) = 1021.44 EP

So if I'm not mistaken it would be just above Unheeded Warning on the list.

Sarvius · 01/03/11, 6:14 AM

Originally Posted by Authopsy

285 * 1.4 + (1425 * 0.16 * 2.6 *1.05) = 1021.44 EP

*1.05? I hope that's not for kings or leather specialization, but I can't imagine why else it would be there (it shouldn't be). EP values are based on raid buffed situations in which kings and, well, being in full leather are a given. EP is the final value, not an intermediary number.

In almost all cases on-use trinkets are going to be inferior to similar or better itemized alternatives. And hit with an agility proc is already fighting a losing battle. JC trinket is worse than the 3 exceptional blue options and much worse than the realistic epic options.

Ends · 01/03/11, 7:05 AM

[00:44:20.306] Endz hits Chimaeron Miss
[00:44:20.539] Endz hits Chimaeron Miss
[00:44:21.456] Endz hits Chimaeron 3226
[00:44:21.460] Endz hits Chimaeron 1223
[00:44:22.011] Endz hits Chimaeron 1284
[00:44:22.103] Endz Rupture Chimaeron 1029
[00:44:22.143] Endz hits Chimaeron 2393
[00:44:22.739] Endz crits Chimaeron *2315*
[00:44:23.093] Endz hits Chimaeron Miss
[00:44:23.580] Endz hits Chimaeron 1254
[00:44:24.244] Endz hits Chimaeron 2602
[00:44:24.391] Endz hits Chimaeron 1208
[00:44:25.064] Endz casts Vanish
[00:44:25.991] Endz Garrote - Silence Chimaeron Immune
[00:44:25.991] Endz casts Garrote on Chimaeron
[00:44:26.169] Endz hits Chimaeron Miss
[00:44:26.614] Endz hits Chimaeron 905
[00:44:27.250] Endz hits Chimaeron 2128
[00:44:27.435] Endz hits Chimaeron 1078
[00:44:28.273] Endz hits Chimaeron 1072
[00:44:28.360] Endz hits Chimaeron 2046
[00:44:29.121] Endz hits Chimaeron 1044
[00:44:29.439] Endz hits Chimaeron 1904

This is a log query I pulled from our Heroic Chimaeron kill on 10's last night. The vanish was performed shortly after overkill had worn off from my opener. Its hard to say how much haste I had at the time but the best I can tell is my MH was at around 1.1 and my OH was at around .85. From this log it seems like I lose 1 swing a piece. Maybe you guys can come up with a more accurate determination based off this.

What can I tell you anecdotally is that my cycle feels more stable. I can tell a huge difference in my numbers on fights where I'm able to get a garrote opener vs a fight like maloriak where there is a combat pulse that knocks you out of stealth. My opener, when I can garrote, is prepot/stealth macro>garrote>snd>muti>rupture>muti>envenom. I can sometimes get 2 mutis before I get my second envenom off and refresh snd. Its very stable and reliable. typically I'm weaving my vendetta in when I see my 5th stack of DP go up, provided I know I'm going to be on the target its duration obviously. One thing I try to do is try to add the garrote's CP to either a 3 or 4 CP stack. It might be important to note that while vanish itself is off the gcd the bar swap seems to fill in for it. 3 is snd out of stealth and garrote in stealth for me and there have been times where I have hit vanish spammed 3 for garrote and refreshed snd instead.

ieatpaperbag · 01/03/11, 8:19 AM

Originally Posted by Ends

It might be important to note that while vanish itself is off the gcd the bar swap seems to fill in for it. 3 is snd out of stealth and garrote in stealth for me and there have been times where I have hit vanish spammed 3 for garrote and refreshed snd instead.

The same thing happens with me (envenom in my case), one solution for this is to make a macro for your SnD that has a stealth conditional that will garrote if true.

Authopsy · 01/03/11, 9:14 AM

Originally Posted by Sarvius

*1.05?

Mea Culpa... It was indeed for the leather specialization. Let's say I was still sleeping.

But could somebody explain why a trinket with hit and an Agi proc is "fighting a losing battle"?

Perini · 01/03/11, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by Bladebender

I dont know if it matters a whole lot but since you need to be behind the target for garrot and all to often the boss turns unexpectedly, opening with mutilate would give you just a few more seconds on the boss and not risking wasting time on positioning.And again, we're talking a mather of 2 seconds

I was reading the previous pages filled with excellent posts about the pros and cons of Garrote / Mutilate as openers and Vanish re-openers, but the point made by Bladebender was on my mind the whole time.

When Mutilate became the spec du jour back in early WOLK (HFB, HFB, HFB *sigh*), I began opening with Mutilate because Garrote's positioning requirement made it, at times, tedious and frustrating. It's very conceivable to lose seconds of DPS time to finding the ass-end of a boss, let alone odd looking mobs whose ass-ends are, shall we say, vague.

That being said, I find the rotations of Garrote / SnD / Rup / Env easier to maintain with current gear. A two-point Mutilate / SnD / 4-5pt Rupture / 4-5pt Envenom find SnD ready to fall off very often before I'm able to get the 4-5pt Envenom built. Refreshing SnD with a 3pt Envenom is not an uncommon problem for me.

mrfire · 01/03/11, 10:05 AM

Am I missing something or nobody talked about pre-potting
yet? That seems kind of strange since we are discussing opening moves.

Chult86 · 01/03/11, 10:41 AM

Pre & Double Potting is the norm. You should be doing this anyways.