Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Rogues

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01/12/11, 5:42 PM   #271
Ends
Von Kaiser
 
Human Rogue
 
Turalyon
Essentially what you're asking is trading 20% increased damage on mutilate, backstab and garrote for a 2 minute vanish. I'm going off the top of my head but with about 20% haste you're regenning 12 energy per second. Assuming the 30% haste stacks multiplicatively you're gaining about 3.6 energy per second or a total of 72 energy per overkill. Then you're getting 6 extra ticks of garrote that have a 60% chance to proc venomous wounds so 3.6 ticks at 10 energy gives you another 36 for a total of 108. So you get 2 extra mutilates or 1 extra mutilate and 2 backstabs, and the damage from the garrote and its venomous wound procs.

Just from looking at your damage breakdowns the first thing that I notice is you either didn't open with garrote or you missed a vanish because you'd ideally have 18 ticks of garrote one from you opener one from your vanish 20 seconds in and the other at 3:20 seconds in. I don't know how you have 28 ticks of garrote on a 5:35 long fight. Even with a 2 minute vanish you're only going to get 4 garrotes off: :00, :20, 2:20, and 4:20 at 6 ticks each. Assuming that's a typo, on the 5:35 fight you gained the 2 mutilates and the garrote damage I described above. You performed 121 mutilates and 21 backstab, and lets say your untalented base mutilate average is 13k and your base backstab damage is 11k. That works out like this

Eluiveness Muti damage 1,570,000 121*13,000
Opportun. Muti damage 1,872,000 120*(13,000*1.2)

Elusiveness BS Damage 231,000 21*11,000
Opportunity BS Damage 250,800 19*(11,000*1.2)

Opportunity is 321,000 damage ahead.I would think that gap would continue to get wider as your gear increased. Vanish is also very situational the best time to use it varies widely. Given my very very rough napkin math it doesn't seem like its a theory worth pursuing.

Last edited by Ends : 01/12/11 at 5:43 PM. Reason: Because I can't add 72 and 36

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/12/11, 5:47 PM   #272
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
More to the point, previously in this thread Elusiveness was analyzed and found to be inferior to Precision, which is inferior to Opportunity (if marginally) in its own right. So barring significant new evidence that previous analysis was incorrect (which I haven't seen), its really not clear to me why this needs to be discussed.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/12/11, 9:47 PM   #273
MikeJ714
Von Kaiser
 
Human Rogue
 
Windrunner
How's the new Alchemy trinket holding up on the EP values? I did some quick math and came up with 1475EP, but that seems wrong to me. Was wondering if this might be worth picking up right away.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/13/11, 2:00 AM   #274
Ivanvenove
Von Kaiser
 
Ivanvenove's Avatar
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Azralon
Originally Posted by skari View Post
With the EP values posted on page 1 the order of professions should be:

1) engineering (as mentiod bevore around ~260 ep)
1) leatherworking ((130*2.6)-(65*1.2)=~260 ep)
2) juwelcrafting ((67*3*2.6)-(40*3*2.6)=~211 ep)
3) all other crafting professions (80*2.6=~208 ep)
4) other professions

dunno where you get the enchant with 50 agi for bracers? i think there is only the 65 haste enchants at the moment.
or did i lost something somewhere?

edit: sorry i missed the datamined enchant with 50 agi here in the forums and on wowhead... that drops leatherworking out of the tops
I think now the order will be:

1)Engineering;
2)JC;
3)All other crafting professions;

According with the EP values from page 1 of the guide.

Brazil Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/13/11, 4:53 AM   #275
Syncness
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Caelestrasz
Originally Posted by Ivanoize View Post
I think now the order will be:

1)Engineering;
2)JC;
3)All other crafting professions;

According with the EP values from page 1 of the guide.
Looks like the guy you quoted calculated incorrectly, I'm surprised I didn't notice (80 agility x 2.6EP is 208)

You are correct, Engineering leads with 249.6EP (based on the previous calculation, I did not look this over). Following, is Jewelcrafting by 2.6 EP at 210.6EP (as JC earns 81 agility whilst other professions gain 80).

Enchanting (2x40agi ring), Leatherworking (130agi enchant), Blacksmithing (2x40agi socket) each earn an overall benefit of 80 agility, leaving it at 208EP.

tl;dr - Engineering - 249.6EP // JC - 210.6EP // Everything else that gives agility as a bonus - 208EP

[e] Engeering maths is fine, 12/60 uptime every minute (1/5th), 1/5 * 480 agility = 96 agility average. 96 x 2.6EP = 249.6EP
[e2] Strings was nerfed to 10 seconds (from 12), dropping Engineering to 208EP.

Last edited by Syncness : 01/18/11 at 12:53 AM.

Australia Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/13/11, 8:29 AM   #276
Kiar
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Arathor (EU)
Originally Posted by MikeJ714 View Post
How's the new Alchemy trinket holding up on the EP values? I did some quick math and came up with 1475EP, but that seems wrong to me. Was wondering if this might be worth picking up right away.
How did you come up with this number?
The stats on the trinket are +301 Agility, +194 Critical Strike rating and a red socket with a +10 Agility bonus.
Making a fair assumption that you'll be putting a +40 Agility gem in that socket, it brings the total stats to 351 Agility, (worth 351 x 2.6 = 912,6 EP) and 194 Crit (worth 194 x 0.9 = 174,6 EP) totalling (912,6 + 174,6 =) 1087,2 EP for Assassination according to the most recent known EP numbers.
If I'm missing something, please let me know.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/13/11, 8:59 AM   #277
ieatpaperbag
Piston Honda
 
ieatpaperbag's Avatar
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Eonar
Originally Posted by Kiar View Post
How did you come up with this number?
The stats on the trinket are +301 Agility, +194 Critical Strike rating and a red socket with a +10 Agility bonus.
Making a fair assumption that you'll be putting a +40 Agility gem in that socket, it brings the total stats to 351 Agility, (worth 351 x 2.6 = 912,6 EP) and 194 Crit (worth 194 x 0.9 = 174,6 EP) totalling (912,6 + 174,6 =) 1087,2 EP for Assassination according to the most recent known EP numbers.
If I'm missing something, please let me know.
You can reforge 77 crit rating into hit or mastery depending on your gear arrangement (this doesn't get the incorrect value of 1475 EP).

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/13/11, 9:10 AM   #278
Padman
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Burning Legion (EU)
to delete

Last edited by Padman : 01/13/11 at 6:38 PM.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/13/11, 9:26 AM   #279
Litodude
Von Kaiser
 
Litodude's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Destromath
Originally Posted by MikeJ714 View Post
How's the new Alchemy trinket holding up on the EP values? I did some quick math and came up with 1475EP, but that seems wrong to me. Was wondering if this might be worth picking up right away.


Assuming we'll be reforging the crit into either hit or mastery, I still don't see how you've come up with the 1475 EP value:

Agility- 351 [including socket bonus and +40 Agi gem] * 2.6EP = 912.6

Crit- 117 [after reforging 77 points into a secondary stat] * .9 = 105.3

This puts baseline EP value to 1017.9 without adding in 77 points of stat benefits in yellow/spell hit cap or mastery.

_____

Baseline trinket EP value + ...

(Yellow hit- 77 * 1.75 = 134.75) = 1152.65

(Spell hit- 77 * 1.4 = 107.8) = 1125.7

(Mastery- 77 * 1.3 = 100.1) = 1118


Based solely on EP value, it's still behind Left Eye of Rajh (probably by a lot more due to the increase in proc chance) and slightly ahead of Unsolvable Riddle.

Last edited by Litodude : 01/13/11 at 10:41 AM.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/13/11, 10:30 AM   #280
zimira
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Anachronos (EU)
Originally Posted by ShadowStrk View Post

You are correct, Engineering leads with 249.6EP (based on the previous calculation, I did not look this over). Following, is Jewelcrafting by 2.6 EP at 210.6EP (as JC earns 81 agility whilst other professions gain 80).

Enchanting (2x40agi ring), Leatherworking (130agi enchant), Blacksmithing (2x40agi socket) each earn an overall benefit of 80 agility, leaving it at 208EP.

tl;dr - Engineering - 249.6EP // JC - 210.6EP // Everything else that gives agility as a bonus - 208EP

[e] Engeering maths is fine, 12/60 uptime every minute (1/5th), 1/5 * 480 agility = 96 agility average. 96 x 2.6EP = 249.6EP
It feels very strange that they put leather working in line with the other +80 agi professions and instead gives engineering the upper hand by a fair margin.

On the other hand if the engineering on use had followed the "standard" cataclysm uptime for on use items (ie 1/6) the math would have lined up nicely, perhaps numbers just aren't polished yet.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/13/11, 10:34 AM   #281
ieatpaperbag
Piston Honda
 
ieatpaperbag's Avatar
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Eonar
Originally Posted by zimira View Post
It feels very strange that they put leather working in line with the other +80 agi professions and instead gives engineering the upper hand by a fair margin.

On the other hand if the engineering on use had followed the "standard" cataclysm uptime for on use items (ie 1/6) the math would have lined up nicely, perhaps numbers just aren't polished yet.
Even if it is intended that the tinker has a 1/6 uptime, it would have somewhat of an edge on the other professions in that you will always be able to line it up with other Assassination cooldowns.

Last edited by ieatpaperbag : 01/13/11 at 12:48 PM.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/13/11, 1:10 PM   #282
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
However, you also risk losing uptime on interrupted fights - if there's target swaps or whatever at spacings that allow getting a full 12 seconds benefit out of 60 (or 10 out of 60, or whatever it ends up being), you'll get less average-case benefit. And it takes a bit more attention to optimize, as well.

In short: if it were 1/6 uptime rather than 1/5, there'd be a reasonable argument to be made. In some ways its better; in others its not as good. Hence, depending on personal preference and current content, some would choose to use it, and some would not. And that, I would argue, is the goal (or should be, at least) of profession balance.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/13/11, 1:59 PM   #283
Gixet
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Magtheridon
Is there official word on whether or not Unheeded Warning - Item - World of Warcraft has had its value increased with the upcoming changes to it? Currently, Tia's Grace is ranked higher, I'm wondering if this will be the case come the patch, still? I saw some math on it a few posts back, but I'm not sure if this was the final say on it or anything yet.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/13/11, 2:26 PM   #284
MikeJ714
Von Kaiser
 
Human Rogue
 
Windrunner
Originally Posted by Litodude View Post
Assuming we'll be reforging the crit into either hit or mastery, I still don't see how you've come up with the 1475 EP value:

Agility- 351 [including socket bonus and +40 Agi gem] * 2.6EP = 912.6

Crit- 117 [after reforging 77 points into a secondary stat] * .9 = 105.3

This puts baseline EP value to 1017.9 without adding in 77 points of stat benefits in yellow/spell hit cap or mastery.

_____

Baseline trinket EP value + ...

(Yellow hit- 77 * 1.75 = 134.75) = 1152.65

(Spell hit- 77 * 1.4 = 107.8) = 1125.7

(Mastery- 77 * 1.3 = 100.1) = 1118


Based solely on EP value, it's still behind Left Eye of Rajh (probably by a lot more due to the increase in proc chance) and slightly ahead of Unsolvable Riddle.
Yeah I knew my math didn't seem right.. I see where I screwed it up now. AKA: Alchemy's still just an 80agi profession.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/13/11, 3:36 PM   #285
Yurifel
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Cho'gall
Is there something I don't know about the Bolt Gun that is keeping us from factoring it into our Engineering EP value? A cursory glance at the damage of the gun (6800-10200, 2 minute cooldown) works out to 70.83 dps average-case before even factoring in crit, which is not insubstantial.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Rogues

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[A] [Nordrassil-EU] - 6/12HM - Cata Caysa Europe 1 04/07/11 4:45 AM
Ambush-Hemo: Points in combat or Assassination Hass Public Discussion 6 09/13/06 7:42 PM