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Old 12/02/10, 12:07 PM   #16
Zulkeir
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Rogue
 
Black Dragonflight
Edit: misread previous post.

Still, that half mutilate would have to be equal to 1% of someone's DPS just to break even. I didn't include the energy into my first post, as I was arguing the rDPS of TotT, and I would differenciate that energy cost as personal DPS gain.

Edit: I made an edit concerning Garrote vs Mutilate, but Aldriana pretty much answered it all, and then some, in 2 sentences.

Last edited by Zulkeir : 12/02/10 at 1:00 PM. Reason: Stupidity

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Old 12/02/10, 12:33 PM   #17
Minifridge
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Goblin Priest
 
Kalecgos
The question is whether it's more DPS to open pre-pot or Garrote.
Wouldn't the following macro accomplish both?

#showtooltip Garrote
/use Potion of the Tol'vir
/cast Garrote
Unless I missed that they put pots on the gcd.

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Old 12/02/10, 12:34 PM   #18
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Re: Tricks. In the test gear set (which is near BIS T11) that I used to generate the EP values for this post, one does 24321 DPS without Glyph of Tricks, and 24765 with it; hence, the energy is worth 444 DPS and the glyph is a raid dps boost when applied to anyone doing less than 44k DPS. Which is to say, "everyone".

Re: Envenom size vs Rupture size. This is something we don't have numbers on yet. Currently I'm only modeling the case where all finishers are the same size. I intend to additionally model the case at some point where you handle rupture like you do SnD - i.e., refresh it with whatever combo points you have available when the previous one drops - given that the vast majority of rupture DPS comes from Venomous Wounds and not the Rupture itself, I think it is quite possible that this will prove superior; however, I have had no opportunity to run the numbers on this, and thus no recommendation can be made.

Re: Garrote out of Vanish. Sort of the same answer here. I think it is likely that its worth giving up a second's worth of autoattacks to Garrote following a vanish - but I haven't done the numbers yet so can't say for sure. I don't anticipate it will be a *large* DPS benefit either way, but it is something that will need to be assessed at some point.

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Old 12/02/10, 12:55 PM   #19
Sculduggery
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Rogue
 
Bleeding Hollow
Originally Posted by Minifridge View Post
Wouldn't the following macro accomplish both?

#showtooltip Garrote
/use Potion of the Tol'vir
/cast Garrote
Unless I missed that they put pots on the gcd.
The mechanics of many existing boss encounters (e.i. all of them where you don't make the first hit) will put you into combat before you can use such a macro, eliminating the purpose of pre-potting. Some of those encounters, however, give you the opportunity to enter the fight with either stealth so that you may open with Garrote or a partial overkill and partial potion buff. Those are the situations I am questioning.

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Old 12/02/10, 4:39 PM   #20
Grimwolf
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Worgen Rogue
 
Turalyon
Originally Posted by Minifridge View Post
#showtooltip Garrote
/use Potion of the Tol'vir
/cast Garrote
As Sculduggery said, you'd be in combat before you were in position to use that macro almost every time, and therefore, unable to pot again during the fight. You might try this macro instead just before the fight starts.

#showtooltip Potion of the Tol'vir
/use Potion of the Tol'vir
/cast Stealth
This way you get the full benefit from Overkill, you can open with Garrote, and you only lose a second or 2 of your prepot. Be sure you're not in stealth when you cast it as that would defeat the purpose.

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Old 12/02/10, 7:42 PM   #21
BlueBells
Glass Joe
 
Troll Rogue
 
Suramar
While it is evident that, in terms of weapon enchants, [Formula: Enchant Weapon - Landslide] is the clear front-runner, the fact remains that it is going to be very expensive for the first burst of raiding in Cataclysm..just like zerking was in WotLK.

Is it reasonable to assume that, for those who do not have access to a couple thousand gold for weapon enchants, Enchant Weapon - Hurricane would be the next best option?

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Old 12/02/10, 8:33 PM   #22
Luckyspoon
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Darkspear
Originally Posted by BlueBells View Post
While it is evident that, in terms of weapon enchants, [Formula: Enchant Weapon - Landslide] is the clear front-runner, the fact remains that it is going to be very expensive for the first burst of raiding in Cataclysm..just like zerking was in WotLK.

Is it reasonable to assume that, for those who do not have access to a couple thousand gold for weapon enchants, Enchant Weapon - Hurricane would be the next best option?
I believe that this thread is being written towards BIS gear and enchants. If I did my math correctly, that would mean that Enchant Weapon - Hurricane 's EP is about 540... while Enchant Weapon - Landslide is like... 1000... which is a BIG difference. if it was 800+ it would be worthwhile to put on the list.

As for the question of if this would be second best, You are Probably correct, it is the next highest in EP value for the newest weapon enchants.

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Old 12/02/10, 8:38 PM   #23
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Originally Posted by BlueBells View Post
While it is evident that, in terms of weapon enchants, [Formula: Enchant Weapon - Landslide] is the clear front-runner, the fact remains that it is going to be very expensive for the first burst of raiding in Cataclysm..just like zerking was in WotLK.

Is it reasonable to assume that, for those who do not have access to a couple thousand gold for weapon enchants, Enchant Weapon - Hurricane would be the next best option?
Avalanche, actually. Its not even that far behind, particularly on the OH. Still behind, so if you can afford Landslide you should definitely still use it, but if you can't...

Edit: I should clarify that this makes certain assumptions about how Avalanche works that aren't entirely verified by current testing. But I think said assumptions are reasonably well founded. When and if you have a weapon with Avalanche on it and an inclination to test it, shoot me a PM and I'll explain the test that needs to happen.

Last edited by Aldriana : 12/02/10 at 8:55 PM.

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Old 12/02/10, 8:50 PM   #24
nextormento
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Uldum (EU)
Edit: Aldriana posted before me, but here goes this anyway since I think it can put things in perspective.

ShadowCraft is being built to adress those questions but for this particular case the question, I think, is not Hurricane vs Landslide but rather Landslide vs Berseking/Mongoose: There's only three new enchants available to rogues so if you do want to sport a shiny new one it's almost obvious that the second best is Hurricane (Avalanche being third I supose).

Current estimates place Landslide at 371-284 EP (values are given for 'main hand' - 'off hand') and Hurricane at 197-151; Berseking can be easily computed in the current incarnation of ShadowCraft and turns out to be around 175-136.

All in all Hurricane is better (plus, as far as I remember, Hurricane is not completely supported given it's current weird proc behaviour); and that's probably the reason Berseking/Mongoose are not supported. Enchanting mats are cheaper now than they were at WotLK launch but if you are that worried about gold, maybe the old, cheap zerker is your way to go.

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Old 12/04/10, 7:23 AM   #25
Greymist1
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Troll Rogue
 
The Forgotten Coast
Originally Posted by Minifridge View Post
Wouldn't the following macro accomplish both?

#showtooltip Garrote
/use Potion of the Tol'vir
/cast Garrote
Unless I missed that they put pots on the gcd.
Pots aren't on the GCD, but this macro won't work for an unrelated reason. Using a pot breaks stealth, which will make the attempt to cast Garotte fail.

I used the haste pot equivalent to the macro Grimwolf posted for months in ICC. It works well, but you need to be sure to use the macro before the raid is put in combat. Use it slightly too late, and you'll lose your opener, Overkill, and a chance to use a second potion later in the fight (the main reason to pre-pot in the first place).

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Old 12/06/10, 4:55 AM   #26
Sakuru
Von Kaiser
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
Originally Posted by Grimwolf View Post
#showtooltip Potion of the Tol'vir
/use Potion of the Tol'vir
/cast Stealth
I have been using an equal macro to this on live for a while, swaping Potion of the Tol'vir with Potion of Speed of course.
Using this macro on a fight where there is an event before entering combat, such as LK or Saurfang works very well, you will only lose about 1 or 2 seconds (timing it right with the initiation of the combat) of potion time before you do your first attack, thus utilising the most of your overkill and pot up time.

On the other hand, this will waste abit more pot time, using this macro, in fights where you will have to move into position after pulling, Festergut / Rotface type fights comes to mind. A possible solution to this is to add in '/cast sprint' into the macro for those fights, enabeling you to get into position faster.

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Old 12/08/10, 12:40 PM   #27
fourdots
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Human Rogue
 
Gilneas
Glinting Demoneye either way?

"Blue Sockets
Name Stats EP
[Glinting Demonseye] 20 Agility/20 Hit Rating 80*
[Glinting Demonseye] 20 Agility/20 Hit Rating 67**
*below spell hit cap
**above spell hit cap"


Is this a typo, or are you simply saying that Glinting Demoneye is the way to go irrespective of whether or not you're above the spell hit cap?

Haven't seen this addressed anywhere, so my apologies if it has. Thanks in advance for your help.

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Old 12/08/10, 1:46 PM   #28
Dyslexicmonkey
Casual
 
Troll Rogue
 
Zul'Jin
It depends. If you use the example given in the first post, you'll see why.

Originally Posted by ieatpaperbag View Post
You generally will want to match all of your Agility bonuses ([Adept Ember Topaz] in yellow sockets and [Glinting Demonseye] in blue sockets) and put all [Delicate Inferno Ruby] into sockets for non-Agility bonuses. To be sure, you may want to calculate the EP value yourself. Using [Wind Dancer's Legguards] as an example, there is a yellow and blue socket for a 20 Agility bonus. Putting a [Adept Ember Topaz] and [Glinting Demonseye] in gives a total of 20+20+20=60 Agility, 20 Mastery Rating, and 20 Hit Rating. Below the spell hit cap, the total EP value is calculated as follows.

Matching Sockets
60(2.6) + 20(1.3) + 20(1.4) = 210 EP

What if we decided to put in two [Delicate Inferno Ruby] instead? This gives a total of 40+40=80 Agility (no socket bonus).

Straight Agility
80(2.61) = 208 EP

So in this case below spell hit cap, it is better to match the sockets. If we recalculate for a situation where you are above the spell hit cap, matching the socket bonuses would only give 197 EP, less then just putting all [Delicate Inferno Ruby] in. Again, you may want to just check to be sure.
The short answer is that you'll need to calculate the EP differences yourself and make an informed decision.

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Old 12/08/10, 5:34 PM   #29
Cheedai
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Kargath (EU)
This post might be based on a misunderstanding of the numbers (Lord knows that's not my strong suit), but I think there might be an error with your hit rating and percentages values.

I play BE Assassination Rogue, I'm level 85 and I've specced 2/3 precision. From my character screen, this is the values I have for hit:
- Hit Chance: +13.99%
- Hit rating 1200 (+9.99% hit chance)

From your original post, it lists the spell hit cap for poisons as 13% / 1332 hit rating when specced 2/3 Precision. However, I've only - as far as I can understand - got 1200 hit rating and am at 13.99%. So yeah, I just figured I'd give you a headsup from live 85 (as I understand some of this is written during beta?) in case some of the numbers are incorrect.

Good work on the guide!

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Old 12/08/10, 6:03 PM   #30
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Those look like melee hit numbers. The spell hit cap is spell hit, and as near as I can tell the numbers in the first post are correct for reaching 13% spell hit with 2/3 opportunity.

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