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Old 01/23/11, 8:54 PM   #346
Implement
Glass Joe
 
Implement
Goblin Rogue
 
Gundrak
I'd like some more information, if possible on the differences between Quickening and Deadened Nerves talent points..
I often find myself thinking that the 10% reduction to damage tacken may outweigh the 15% healing increase as it saves them healing me in the first place. Is the bonus run speed worth it alone?
I also understand that it requires only 2 points instead of 3 but in most cases and raids survivability comes first over dps.

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Old 01/23/11, 9:12 PM   #347
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
In all situations except dying to burst damage - which really shouldn't be happening - +% healing is basically just as good as -% damage. So taking a +7.5% per point healing talent instead of a 3% per point damage reduction talent seems like a pretty good idea in the large. And the runspeed is useful for any fight where you have to move, which would be, basically, all of them, so Quickening gives you a DPS increase as well as better survivability. Seems to me that makes it better in more or less all possible circumstances.

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Old 01/24/11, 3:48 AM   #348
Probaton
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Hellfire (EU)
Not to mention that Quickening not only improves your survivability by upping your healing but also decreases the time you spend in aoe effects. Some aoe's are simply unavoidable at first cast and being able to walk out of them 15% faster can save you a tick.

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Old 01/24/11, 6:00 AM   #349
Tumblebeer
Von Kaiser
 
Worgen Rogue
 
Xavius (EU)
The sub specc swapping for better SnD has already been fixed.
I was using it yesterday, with impressive results, but this morning swapping speccs removes your SnD.
Recuperate still stays, so it could be used prefight for up to 120 energy, but it's hardly worth it.
Also, any combo points gained from Premeditaion are removed upon speccswapping.

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Old 01/24/11, 9:06 AM   #350
Druss
Piston Honda
 
Orc Rogue
 
Kazzak (EU)
Originally Posted by geofferson View Post
The bold is terrible advise. Expertise is almost as bad a crit and white hit. If you are reforging / gemming for expertise as Assassination then you are doing it wrong.

Gem for Agility
Reforge expertise and crit to Hit until spell cap (17%)
Reforge the rest of your expertise, haste and crit to mastery
Sound advice though I have noticed that where Mastery becomes very high and Haste very low the difference between these stats in terms of weightings is almost nil (EP values of 1.12 Mastery 1.11 Haste for me with 2406 Mastery and 536 Haste).

In PvE gear my Mastery is very high but I constantly find myself energy starved due to my very low Haste. I surmise that toning things back a bit on the mastery front (as in NOT reforging haste to mastery) to result in less mastery and more haste might help in practical terms - according to Shadowcraft if I drop back to 2047 Mastery and increase Haste to 895 I will only lose 13dps. However, it could be there there is a less of a feeling of being constantly energy starved and overall that may in practise make the Hastier setup perform better.

So, it seems to me that there might be a need to balance Mastery and Haste rather than an outright assumption (though no doubt correct in mathematical terms) that one should always reforge Haste to Mastery if possible. It could be that we find an ideal number to head for for haste i.e. a point at which we have enough energy to perform but not at the cost of losing out on too much increased poison damage.

Last edited by Druss : 01/24/11 at 12:27 PM.

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Old 01/24/11, 11:37 AM   #351
Cerevantes
Von Kaiser
 
Worgen Rogue
 
Kargath
Originally Posted by Druss View Post
Sound advice though I have noticed that where Mastery becomes very high and Haste very low the difference between these stats in terms of weightings is almost nil (EP values of 1.12 Mastery 1.11 Haste for me with 2406 Mastery and 536 Haste).

In PvE gear my Mastery is very high but I constantly find myself energy starved due to my very low Haste. I surmise that toning things back a bit on the mastery front (as in NOT reforging haste to mastery) to result in less mastery and more haste might help in practical terms - according to Shadowcraft if I drop back to 2047 Mastery and increase Haste to 895 I will only lose 13dps.......but it could be there there is a less of a feeling of being constantly energy starved and overall that may in practise make the Hastier setup perform better.

So, it seems to me that there might be a need to balance Mastery and Haste rather than an outright assumption (though no doubt correct in mathematical terms) that one should always reforge Haste to Mastery if possible. It could be that we find an ideal number to head for for haste i.e. a point at which we have enough energy to perform but not at the cost of losing out on too much increased poison damage.
536 haste seems quite low and 2400 mastery seems quite high (likely sacrificing agi or not using high EP valued pieces). It wasn't until 5% haste unbuffed where I was starting to feel limber in my rotation. About starved on Energy though, Mut doesn't spam GCDs like Combat does. Having extra GCDs is normal and often gives you breathing room for defensive cooldowns or rotation min maxing. If you feel rushed to refresh rupture/SnD then the culprit is likely poor energy usage. Pushing for extra envenoms might serve your rotation better simply by pooling and then belting out specials under the envenom buff.

I tried going heavy haste a few weeks back simply because in sub-bis gear levels haste had a higher EP value for me, but ultimately the values don't change outside the priority Aldriana has listed, and tightening up my play while going back to our normal stat priorities netted me far more dps gains and top WoL rankings than I ever thought I would gain by swapping around to experimental stat setups.


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Old 01/24/11, 1:44 PM   #352
StoicRoivaS
Piston Honda
 
StoicRoivaS's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Dunemaul
Originally Posted by Druss View Post
Sound advice though I have noticed that where Mastery becomes very high and Haste very low the difference between these stats in terms of weightings is almost nil (EP values of 1.12 Mastery 1.11 Haste for me with 2406 Mastery and 536 Haste).

In PvE gear my Mastery is very high but I constantly find myself energy starved due to my very low Haste. I surmise that toning things back a bit on the mastery front (as in NOT reforging haste to mastery) to result in less mastery and more haste might help in practical terms - according to Shadowcraft if I drop back to 2047 Mastery and increase Haste to 895 I will only lose 13dps. However, it could be there there is a less of a feeling of being constantly energy starved and overall that may in practise make the Hastier setup perform better.

So, it seems to me that there might be a need to balance Mastery and Haste rather than an outright assumption (though no doubt correct in mathematical terms) that one should always reforge Haste to Mastery if possible. It could be that we find an ideal number to head for for haste i.e. a point at which we have enough energy to perform but not at the cost of losing out on too much increased poison damage.
Dps is not a feeling. Dps is a concrete thing that you can measure, estimate, approximate, replicate, and any other scientific verb you feel like applying. How your rotation "feels" as you pull it off is 100% entirely irrelevant. If the best setup for producing dps involved stacking spell penetration, never using a single CP-builder, and leaving our talent points unspent, we would do exactly that. Feeling "energy starved" is a result of gaining something around 15 energy per second but having the ability to spend 55 a second. It's almost entirely unrelated to how much haste versus mastery you accumulate. If haste is worth less than mastery on average (roughly true) and more importantly, if haste is worth less than mastery *in your current gear* then you should stack mastery. There is no need to balance the two until the weaker actually catches up with the stronger, as was the case with attack power versus other stats in wrath.

If a stat is the best, it's the best. It doesn't matter what you feel about the situation. If you're willing giving up any amount of dps to feel better while playing, well, I'm not sure this is the place for you. No offense meant.

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Old 01/24/11, 2:54 PM   #353
Druss
Piston Honda
 
Orc Rogue
 
Kazzak (EU)
Originally Posted by StoicRoivaS View Post
If a stat is the best, it's the best. It doesn't matter what you feel about the situation. If you're willing giving up any amount of dps to feel better while playing, well, I'm not sure this is the place for you. No offense meant.
You've rather overstated the point i'm making when you suggest I might give up "any" amount of DPS to feel better while playing. My observation is that mastery and haste are so very close in EP value with certain gear sets (very high mastery/very low haste) that it may in practise be the case that haste is preferable because it provides more energy for a smooth rotation. Thereby enabling you to ramp up faster and have more energy at crucial times for the right move.

So i'm not talking about giving up "any" amount of DPS i'm talking about an EP value difference of 0.01 as between haste and mastery. By the sounds of Cerevantes post it took until 5% haste for him to have enough haste to efficiently execute a "limber" rotation. I've just increased my haste from 3.5% haste to 4.85% with a small cost to mastery and have experienced the same phenomenon - Shadowcraft tells me I have lost 1.5 dps (out of more than 20000) yet it really does seem easier to play in a fluid way.

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Old 01/24/11, 3:32 PM   #354
Cerevantes
Von Kaiser
 
Worgen Rogue
 
Kargath
Originally Posted by Druss View Post
So i'm not talking about giving up "any" amount of DPS i'm talking about an EP value difference of 0.01 as between haste and mastery. By the sounds of Cerevantes post it took until 5% haste for him to have enough haste to efficiently execute a "limber" rotation. I've just increased my haste from 3.5% haste to 4.85% with a small cost to mastery and have experienced the same phenomenon - Shadowcraft tells me I have lost 1.5 dps (out of more than 20000) yet it really does seem easier to play in a fluid way.
Don't take my meaning incorrectly to be that haste > mastery in the current tier at any gear level. But I found that with entry level raid gear haste and the lack of tangential expertise from Tier Chest/Organic Lifeform Inverter/Scaleslicer your rotation can be disrupted while pooling into 3-4 specials with envenom buff up. I still never spam skills with low energy amounts, and you will always feel "energy starved" even by fully gemming haste and spamming outright is a dps loss atm.


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Old 01/24/11, 8:19 PM   #355
Verain
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Ursin
The bold is terrible advise. Expertise is almost as bad a crit and white hit.
Note that the value of pre-dodge cap expertise is doubled during any time you spend in front of the boss, as expertise also mitigates parry at equal rate to mitigating dodge. If your guild's strategy for a boss involves putting you in front for a sizeable amount of time, for instance, than for that fight expertise should outperform all other secondary stats up to dodge cap.

Dps is not a feeling. Dps is a concrete thing that you can measure, estimate, approximate, replicate, and any other scientific verb you feel like applying. How your rotation "feels" as you pull it off is 100% entirely irrelevant.
In truth, I am not convinced of the veracity of this sentiment. The best models in the world compare average results, because that is what results in the best damage. But when you are actually there in the fight, with 5 combo points and energy pooling and 2 seconds left on slice and dice and 1.5 seconds left on envenom, you are now in a situation where what used to definitely be your optimal strategy (refresh after the envenom buff falls) carries with it a large penalty with a low probability (dodged envenom from uncapped expertise and the slice and dice falling). In this case, you "buy" a simpler rotation with a smaller amount of variability by adding expertise- but your damage will fall in the general case.

I do generally agree with your sentiment towards "my haste doesn't feel right", because even with no haste, mutilate should be able to keep a rotation going. I would simply argue that a spec with less complexity (in his case, more free energy, in my example, less worry about a dodged envenom requiring maintenance) has that as something to be argued for, even if the average case dps is less- gearing suboptimally by model can be defended (for you) if it buys you something you can actually really make use of, and results in you doing better in a raid.

On the other hand, if what's really happening is a reluctance to learn a different rotation or technique, then you have limited yourself as a rogue, and limited your raid's dps. I just don't think it's right to dismiss the other side of the argument, because it's not just math, it's also philosophy. If there was a boss that was really hard that had two buffs that spawned at random times, and getting the buff either halved your damage or doubled it (50% shot of either), then you would have guilds that couldn't get the boss without those buffs trying until they rolled double damage on both of them. Blizzard doesn't make stuff that "lumpy", but the idea is still there.

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Old 01/24/11, 9:22 PM   #356
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
While its perhaps overstating the case to posit that the "feel" of a rotation is 100% irrelevant, I think you're underestimating the sophistication of existing modeling. While its true that circumstances like the one you mention can arise, they do so only rarely, and both the occurrence rate and the damage penalty of that dodge can be estimated. ShadowCraft isn't all the way there yet, but there's no reason to believe it won't get there.

In other words: capping expertise will reduce your average DPS in almost all cases. Which is not to say you shouldn't cap it, mind you; I leave that decision to you. All I'm doing is trying to figure out what the "best" way to do things is, and the magnitude of the tradeoff for doing so. If its worth half a percent of DPS of you to not have to worry about dodges, you're welcome to decide to make that tradeoff - but don't try to fool yourself into thinking you're doing something that's "actually" better damage, because its not.

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Old 01/24/11, 10:17 PM   #357
gingertonic
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Rogue
 
Laughing Skull
In regards to feeling energy starved, I only get that feeling if I get unlucky with my VW procs for a few seconds. As long as you have your rupture/garrote up and are getting VW procs, you shouldn't really feel energy starved, even at this gear level. I'm sitting at 671 haste unbuffed which is 4.51% and 2248 mastery which is +71% poison damage. I am happy to give up some haste for extra mastery when I know that VW procs will benefit from the mastery in addition to granting me energy. What I am nervous about is that I am currently using dual Hurricane enchants. Once I make the switch to Landslide I am curious to see how the AP/haste exchange will affect the feeling of energy starvation.

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Old 01/25/11, 12:49 AM   #358
vileguy
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Black Dragonflight
Originally Posted by Verain View Post
In truth, I am not convinced of the veracity of this sentiment. The best models in the world compare average results, because that is what results in the best damage. But when you are actually there in the fight, with 5 combo points and energy pooling and 2 seconds left on slice and dice and 1.5 seconds left on envenom, you are now in a situation where what used to definitely be your optimal strategy (refresh after the envenom buff falls) carries with it a large penalty with a low probability (dodged envenom from uncapped expertise and the slice and dice falling). In this case, you "buy" a simpler rotation with a smaller amount of variability by adding expertise- but your damage will fall in the general case.
This situation of 2 seconds left on slice and dice, 1.5 seconds on envenom would only occur after an envenom has already been dodged. I wouldn't hesitate to clip my envenom if slice and dice has 3 or fewer seconds remaining. Unless the boss has buffed dodge or parry, I wouldn't expect 3+ sequential dodges to happen often enough to be a concern, and if I can predict the boss will be able to parry I might just refresh slice and dice sooner.

As for haste being worth taking over mastery for a smoother rotation, I don't have a problem rolling slice and dice and rupture, only if I'm trying to also roll recuperate do I have to let something fall off. Wouldn't more haste just mean more clipping of envenom?

edited for clarity

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Old 01/25/11, 1:26 PM   #359
Raconzor
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Icecrown
Scanning through logs near the top on fights like Chimaeron and Argoloth (as close to patchwerk as we have available) one of the things I note is they all have a rupture uptime of ~90% and an envenom buff uptime of ~60%. Just some food for thought as you consider the flow of your rotation. Obviously having significantly less rupture uptime will cripple your energy income and cause you to do less of everything.

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Old 01/25/11, 1:46 PM   #360
Trollosaurus Rex
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Hunter
 
Anetheron
How are they maintaining close to 60% envenom buff? The only thing I can think of is they are only mutilating at 5cps all the time. I myself am usually at 45% to 48% uptime with envenom.

And no, I don't clip my envenoms, unless I absolutely have to (energy close to capping).

Last edited by Trollosaurus Rex : 01/25/11 at 2:01 PM.

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