Currently, the site does not list a BIS for our cloak. Please correct me if i'm wrong, but from my understanding, the ONLY PVE cloaks available in 4.3 are the cloaks sold by the valor pt vendor. So would that automatically make that cloak the BIS cloak piece for ALL classes?

The heroic Dreadfire Drape comes out ahead because of the second red socket, assuming there is no ilvl 410 version of the valor point cloak.

I have a question on some optimization of gear. I am running into some confusion as to which site i should be using for gear optimization. Shadowcraft, appears to be using old tier 12 stat values, while askmrrobot, is even worse with tier 11, but you can change them to tier 13.

the second part is specific to the kiroptyric sigil trinket, now the base value listed here make it one of the worst trinkets available, and this is supported in askmrrobot, yet shadowcraft puts it in the top for upgrades.

Just alot of conflicting information out there, and i was hoping someone can shed a little light on my confusion.

I would say use both, but I personally put my faith in Shadowcraft. Regarding the kiroptyric sigil trinket, the live version of Shadowcraft is currently overvaluing it by using the incorrect ICD of 60 seconds--this will be fixed once the latest dev build of Shadowcraft gets pushed out.

Hey,

I've been following this guide since cata launch; can't help but notice the value of expertise rising up in relation to haste. At the moment the two are equivalent. I won't bother with why that is, although I suppose it's because of either stronger attacks not getting through, or energy capping when pooling due to increasing amounts of haste already on our gear.

You've also mentioned that it should be worth it to cap out expertise with the Fangs, due to having a brief period of burst which you don't want to miss out on. This is completely logical. I wanted to know whether, on average, capping out expertise becomes more worthwhile than pushing mastery in the long run. Is it worth it to sacrifice the sustain in order to guarantee that the burst will pull through?

Thanks in advance.

Quick thought, although I haven't run any true numbers on it. Assuming full BiS or close to, do you think there will ever be a chance that Assassination might ever want to spec into Elusiveness over 2/3 Precision? Generally speaking it is 410 hit to make up that 4%, I believe, which is a pretty big hole to fill, but speaking overall, do you think it would ever be possible that an extra vanish (and maybe cloak if survival is potentially an issue) might outweigh the potential loss of 410 of X stats?

I think the hit lost is worth 705 EP, my question would be, would an extra Overkill and Garrote or multiple Vanishes (pending on the fight of course) be worth that 705 EP. There's also the factor of what stats you would be reforging out of. As mentioned I haven't had a chance to really run thorough numbers on it but I figured this could be a question for the community.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think with the rogue's T13 4-set (+9 seconds to Vendetta when assassination), it might be worth it to get the Glyph of Vendetta over Glyph of Backstab. While I don't know if the the 20% added duration from the glyph would take the 4-set into consideration as well, it would still be another +6 seconds(+7 if it counts 4-set). So you would have a total of +15 or +16 extra seconds of Vendetta every time you use it with the 4-set AND glyph.

Your thoughts and comments please. I would like a definite answer.
(enter theory-crafting here)

This possibility was explored when the set bonus was first announces, and the conclusions are basically:

1) Even with the 4pc, the benefit of Glyph of Vendetta is still smaller than that given by the other 3 options, and
2) 39 seconds of Vendetta is hard enough to use, let alone 46.8.

So, for Ultraxion, where you can't Backstab - sure, go for it. Everywhere else... probably not.

This begets the question, when calculating the EP value of the 4 piece bonus, does Shadowcraft assume that you're on the target for a full, uninterrupted 39 seconds? As you point out, 39 seconds on one target (besides Ulraxion) is a pretty tall order.

The reason I ask is because the numbers do come out better on the sheet with four pieces of tier gear. But I'm beginning to wonder if I might in reality be better off with merely the two piece bonus, and using the vendor head and crafted leggings, both of which are much better itemized for the spec.

Obviously, Shadowcraft downgrades my numbers when I do that, but if I can't stay on one target long enough to maximize the bonus' potential anyway, I might be better off being able to take advantage of the better stats, which are obviously present 100% of the time.

Again, it seems that this all hinges on how much time you get to spend on one target, and what assumptions Shadowcraft makes about same.

As always, thanks for any and all feedback.

As far as I know shadowcraft assumes that you are on target for 6-minutes straight. You can change that under general settings in Antiarc's version. It's set to 5 in Caffeine's.

Yes, I understand that. But the issue here is not how long the sheet thinks the fight lasts, but whether or not it's assuming I am spending 39 seconds at a time on one target.

If it is, then it may be overestimating the EP value of an extra 9 seconds of Vendetta.

Probably, although not necessarily. Given the level of sophistication of both the spreadsheet and the people who created it, I would not be at all surprised to learn that the fact that we are almost never on the target for a straight 39 seconds, let alone a full 6 minutes, might be accounted for in some way. It would not be the first time interruptions were modeled into a spreadsheet.

And if it isn't, then that means my original question is a valid one.

I am not sure what are you trying to achieve here.

Yes, ShadowCraft assumes full uptime of all procs and buffs such as Vendetta. And that means that it's giving a theoretical DPS for a perfect scenario. As far as I remember, it was always like this with Aldriana's tools (but then, I am using them only since 3.1).

You can't really hardcode "okay, this talent should have this value but because encounters usually don't allow to use it fully, we'll just multiply it's value by 0.8". When there is a support for "DPS with conditions", you can always expect an interface element to set up those conditions. Because they are different for each boss and every player.

But if you are concerned about getting DPS output that matches your specific scenario as close as possible, there is nothing easier than to just take ShadowCraft backend and do whatever you want with it. For example disable assassination 4-set bonus when you know that you'll not be able to use it.

"there is nothing easier than to just take ShadowCraft backend and do whatever you want with it. For example disable assassination 4-set bonus when you know that you'll not be able to use it. "

As far as messing around with the backend, I simply don't know how to do that. I do not have a technical background. If there is a way to do this from within the application itself, I cannot find it.

As far as what I'm trying to "achieve", let me state it as succinctly as possible. I'm seriously considering not going with the 4 piece bonus, and using the vendor helm and crafted pants instead due to their superior itemization. Shadowcraft says I should do otherwise.

I am naturally rather hesitant to go against Shadowcraft, as it has been an invaluable tool throughout Cataclysm. But if, as everyone seems to suggest, it is assuming that I'm always getting that extra 9 seconds, then it occurs to me it may overvaluing the the bonus, due to the fact that in most fights you just don't have the luxury of staying on one target for 39 seconds. Which makes the tier pieces (beyond the first two) less valuable and the non-tier pieces more valuable, relatively speaking. So I was just trying to get some perspective on this.

If you're talking about heroic pieces, don't bother - ilvl will carry the day. If you're talking about normal mode, you have perfectly good EP values to assess the tradeoff for yourself.

I don't see that there's much to discuss here.

There's a third option you might want to consider. And that's going 2 piece T12 and 2 piece T13. I'm not sure how good it would be with a Mutilate spec; but with Subtlety, the T12 gloves and shoulders are still BIS, because the T12 2 piece set bonus is that good.

The answer to which spec is "better" is largely dependent on your raid needs and the fight, though for most raids, there's not really any fight where mut is better than sub or combat. The only fight where there's an argument for going mut other than "we really need 8% spell damage debuff" is Yor if you need more aoe on forgotten ones, as mut has the best aoe against a large number of targets.

Unless something changes to make mutilate vastly higher theoretical damage, which its not, sub and combat will generally out perform it because of a combination of damage reduction and controlled burst damage from sub or being able to attack from the front and bladeflurry from combat.

Reason that i can think of why combat shines, numbers wise:-
1) There are times where you need to swap target, but not long enough for Mut spec to build up DP stacks.
2) The adds don't stay up long enough to deal damage as mut.
3) There's hardly a time when you stay on the boss for a full 39 seconds to make full use of vendetta.

As has always been the case; don't pay too much attention to the item rankings in the slot dropdown. This ranking is merely a way of listing the items in a semi-logical way to make them easier to find. The number displayed next to each item should not in any way be considered a definitive EP value. If you had taken the time to actually equip the trinket in Shadowcraft you would have noticed a ~3k dps increase using Wrath over Grace.

As far as finalizing EP values; you may not trust Shadowcraft but that's a rather shortsighted place to make a stand as the EP values you so desperately want are most likely going to come from Shadowcraft anyway, the question is only whether you want to get them straight from the horses mouth or if you prefer someone posting them in the OP for you. Additionally; all DS items have currently been modeled at least to some extent. There might be little polishing to do here or there but chances are this is as good as it gets.

On a personal note; a little more respect for the people doing your dirty work might suit you.

I'm sorry for sounding rude back there, it wasn't an attack towards the OP or the people doing the research, it was a jab at assassination being considered "the worst spec", and given least attention. As a rogue that absolutely refuses to go combat, I felt like raging after all this time.

Anyway, I DID equip the trinkets in SC, I wasn't looking at the drop down list. Lo and behold, my dps apparently plummets several hundred when I equip WoU after hypothetically having had Grace. For example.

Anyway, frustrations aside, I believe I already did mention keep up the great work with this. I just wanted an answer to something that was "in testing" for 3 and a half months. Because I'm considering reforging for exp cap. Personally, I prefer the juicy haste, and my data just doesn't yield any conclusive results; I tried reforging over multiple times and I've never seen much of a dps variation (pre-fangs).

In any case, sorry if I've offended anyone.

There's modeling bugs with all versions of WoU, but those don't really matter, seeing as all three versions of WoU are the three best trinkets in the game.

Did you remember to reforge again after? If your Grace was reforged to hit then switching to WoU could have dropped you below the spell hit cap which for Assassination would probably show up as a DPS loss.