Assassination Guide for Cata [12/01/2011] - Page 35

Jaeron · 02/23/11, 8:00 PM

I setup on a practice dummy, put up snd and got 5cp, then used cold blood and waited for deadly scheme to proc. Using shiv for cp(which cant crit so doesn't use CB) I kept snd up, and after 8-10 minutes, deadly scheme never procd... I know the proc % is only 1% so maybe I should have tried for longer, but within 30sec of envenoming and consuming CB, deadly scheme procd.

It's actually kind of funny someone posted this, I posted on the general discussion asking for them to add a "More powerful spell active" earlier today here: Cold Blood + Deadly Scheme Suggestion - Forums - World of Warcraft

But I do have to correct you, Deadly Scheme CAN definitely proc, before I posted that I did all of the testing, and it did indeed proc while Cold Blood was active. You just came on the other end of RNG.

The following was in my post:

This should also go the other way, I tested auto-attacking the dummy with Cold Blood active and Deadly Scheme proc'd.

I definitely agree, it sucks when you hit CB JUST as Deadly Scheme proc'd, or see Deadly Scheme proc JUST as you hit CB.

Jodou · 02/24/11, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by Jaeron

But I do have to correct you, Deadly Scheme CAN definitely proc, before I posted that I did all of the testing, and it did indeed proc while Cold Blood was active.

Well, that's unfortunate news; hopefully Cold Blood simply stacked with Deadly Scheme and was not overwritten? While I would like to see a DS proc prevent CB from being activated, I think having an active CB should not prevent a DS proc. Since the consensus so far is no ICD on DS, anything less than a change allowing each to be consumed individually would only serve to devalue the bonus. The caveat to this of course is (pending which is consumed first) rotation stability and offsetting timers.

Jaeron · 02/24/11, 1:47 PM

I think having an active CB should not prevent a DS proc. Since the consensus so far is no ICD on DS, anything less than a change allowing each to be consumed individually would only serve to devalue the bonus.

Actually I can't think of a scenario that would support it devaluing the bonus. If it did have an ICD it would be an obvious help for it not to proc during CB. But since doesn't have an ICD, how would it lose any value to stop it from proc'ing during CB? The buff is wasted if it does proc, and it can proc the very next white hit in either scenario. I think it would be more of a peace of mind thing, when I hit CB and THEN DS procs, I die a little inside. This actually happened both times during heroic Chimaeron last night. It may not be much, but it was a thought I had to push out of my head to concentrate on my rotations and such. :P

Probaton · 02/25/11, 5:02 AM

Don't take me wrong, I care deeply for your peace of mind, Jaeron. But asking Blizzard to patch an ability with the sole purpose of restoring it seems a bit much. Seeing as there is absolutely no downside to DS proccing during CB I'd vote for keeping it in. And who knows, there might be a boss in future content that reduces crit-chance by x%, in which case having a 200% bonus might actually help.

And come to think of it, not allowing CB to activate during DS is also tricky as you might be activating it to buff a mutilate (which isn't affected by DS) for the extra cp. Rare, I know, but it seems rather extreme to just negate the possibility altogether.

Pokerdonkey · 02/25/11, 1:00 PM

A little subjective reasoning towards the pooling of energy for envenoms. Given that you arent clipping envenoms or capping out energy, wouldn't it make sense to pool energy for mutilates as opposed to envenoming at 35 energy if the buff isnt up? All said and done when the fight is over the % uptime is pretty much set due to fact that you will only get so many envenoms.

This is of course assuming that you arent clipping buffs or capping energy. Running at around 5% haste I personally haven't had any issues.

Pest · 02/26/11, 7:29 AM

I want to come back to the topic professions, since the discussion starved at some point.
Specifically to the value of engineering.

As far as I see there are 3 sources of damage from engineering:

1. Synapse Springs
2. [High-Powered Bolt Gun]
3. [Saronite Bomb]/[Big Daddy]

1. The use of Synapse Springs on cooldown equates to 80 Agi.
In practice however it's unlikely that you will use it in the very first seconds of a fight, if you combine it with Vendetta, which means that you lose some of the benefit (if you delay it 10 seconds, thats a loss of roughly 208 DPS (80 Agi x 2.6 EP)* in the first 10 seconds compared to other professions).
On the other hand the usage with Vendetta increases the DPS gain of the Springs by another 20%. According to the rough comparison of EP with DPS used above, this would mean you get 249.6 DPS (208 x 1.2) every two minutes instead of 208, which is an overall benefit of 20.8 DPS ((249.6 + 208)/2) - 208) when combining the Springs with Vendetta.
Thus the assumed delay would cost you 2080 DMG with is being made up at a fight duration of 100 seconds. Since every given boss fight lasts longer than that, it's a DPS gain to combine the Springs with Vendetta, and this puts engineering theoretically ahead of other professions (at 101.25 seconds ahead of Jewelcrafting).
Another important factor is the fight duration itself. You'll only get the mentioned DPS increases in the worst case since the Springs provide the Agi Bonus at the start of every minute and not at the end. Hence your DPS gains increase further the less time passes between the usage of the Springs and the end of the fight. Assuming the use of the Springs on cooldown without Vendetta, for the sake of simplicity, this looks as follows for 10 second intervals:

Worst case: |-480Agi-|--------|--------|--------|--------|--------| = 80 Agi/Second
Best case: |-480Agi-|--------|--------|--------|--------|--------|-480Agi-| = 137.14 Agi/Second
-> Average = 108.57 Agi/Second

2. As mentioned in the guide it's a DPS loss to use [High-Powered Bolt Gun] at all as long as you are attacking. But when you are moving and can't attack, and thats the case in nearly every boss fight in this raiding tier for some time, you gain 70.83 DPS (((6800 + 10200)/2)/120) for 2 minutes. When there are multiple targets (e.g. Cho'gall, Maloriak) the benefit gets multiplied by their amount. When hitting 5 targets this would equate to 354.15 DPS for 2 minutes, which is huge (1.7 extra professions).

3. According to Wowhead [Saronite Bomb] doesn't share cooldown with the High-Powered Bolt Gun (HPBG). Unlike the HPBG the Saronite Bombs don't reset the swing timer and thus can be used on cooldown for a net gain of 22.08 DPS (((1150 + 1500)/2)/60). If you use [Big Daddy] instead you will gain 83.33 DPS.

The 80 Agi professions provide roughly a static 208 DPS, Jewelcrafting 210.6 DPS.
With Vendetta and Synapse Springs used in conjunction, 10 seconds delay at the beginning of the fight, assuming a fight duration of 5 minutes, only one target and no movement, engineering would net you:

|----|1497.6 DPS ((480 x 2.6) x 1.2) |----|----|----|----| = 249.6 DPS

|----|1248 DPS (480 x 2.6) |----|----|----|----| = 208 DPS

|----|1497.6|----|----|----|----| = 249.6 DPS

|----|1248|----|----|----|----| = 208 DPS

|----|1497.6|----|----|----|----| = 249.6 DPS

232.96 DPS ((249.6 x 3 + 208 x 2)/5).

Assuming a fight duration of 500 seconds (8.33 minutes) engineering would net you:

|----|1497.6 DPS ((480 x 2.6) x 1.2) |----|----|----|----| = 249.6 DPS

|----|1248 DPS (480 x 2.6) |----|----|----|----| = 208 DPS

|----|1497.6|----|----|----|----| = 249.6 DPS

|----|1248|----|----|----|----| = 208 DPS

|----|1497.6|----|----|----|----| = 249.6 DPS

|----|1248|----|----|----|----| = 208 DPS

|----|1497.6|----|----|----|----| = 249.6 DPS

|----|1248|----|----|----|----| = 208 DPS

|----|1497.6| = 748.8 DPS

286.57 DPS ((249.6 x 4 + 208 x 4 + 748.8)/9).

Bloodlust will of course affect this calculations, as it favors engineering when Springs are used during Bloodlust, and does the opposite the other way round. But since, according to the guide, you will want to use Vendetta during Bloodlust, that's not much of an issue.
In both cases you could add Saronite Bombs for exactly 22.08 DPS or preferably [Big Daddy] for 83.33 DPS in the first example and a bit more in the second, due to the last "minute" being only one third of a minute. If you spend time without attacking you can make use of the HPBG for another 70.83 DPS on single and 354.15 on 5 targets and 708.3 on 10 targets (e.g. Maloriak) respectively, calculated for the 2 following minutes. This doesn't even take crits into account, which are said to be possible at least with the HPBG according to Wowhead. Obviously you will want to safe the Saronite Bombs and the HPBG for adds, if there is less than 1 minute, or 2 respectively, when the cooldown would expire anyway, until they spawn, to get the best use out of them.

BUT remember that you have to be attacking the full duration of the 10 seconds Synapse Springs are up to get the full benefit. Also, if you are forced to delay the usage, Vendetta and the Synapse Springs will get out of sync which will decrease the DPS gain further. If, however, you can use the full 10 seconds and are unable to attack your target afterwards, this will push engineering's value compared to other professions even more, since the cooldown expires anyway.
Also note that you will need additional keybindings to make use out of those 3 damage enhancements and, while not much, some additional attention, whereas all other competitive professions provide their bonus passively. However, it seems to me like you could reduce the number of needed keybindings for engineering down to one, when you macro Vendetta with the Springs, and the Saronite Bombs with the HPBG in a clever castsequence macro (/castsequence reset=59 Saronite Bomb, High-Powered Bolt Gun)(/castsequence reset=59 Big Daddy, High-Powered Bolt Gun).

Overall engineering seems to be superior to all other professions in terms of provided damage. In most cases by a significant and in some by a huge amount. The gap between engineering and other professions widens by a fair margin, if you take the cost to use [Big Daddy] on cooldown. There are rare scenarios where engineering would be inferior, but I can't seem to find them in the current tier of raiding. This puts engineering and jewelcrafting at the top of professions.

If you find any flaws or errors, don't hesitate to point them out.

*The 1:1 comparison of EP and DPS is not exact. However it's not that far off. See this Post: Rogue Simple Questions Thread: Cataclysm Edition. Assassination EP values used.

lubricious · 02/26/11, 9:01 AM

There are a number of boss effects (Lightning Rod being an easy example) that can require you to stop damage and react for a short time. The advantage can quickly evaporate if this happens during your buff. Other possible factors include increased damage phases (like Magmaw) where your cooldown status can either net you a significant benefit or not provide one at all.

Also, you were using 2.6 EP per agi figure, which I believe included the passive 10% agi gain received through leather specialization and raid buffs. You'll want to recalculate the proc EP value at 10% lower if that's the case.

Edited to remove a quote that wasn't really necessary.

Soldier62994 · 02/26/11, 10:25 AM

Big Daddy are the Cata bombs.
While you do have to be Goblin Engineer(which will likely change in some form) to use them, the fact is that using them off cooldown(albeit expensive) will seriously pull Engineering ahead of the rest.

Pest · 02/27/11, 5:12 PM

Originally Posted by lubricious

There are a number of boss effects (Lightning Rod being an easy example) that can require you to stop damage...

Well, that's what I ment when I said, that you have to be attacking the full duration to get the full benefit.

Originally Posted by lubricious

Also, you were using 2.6 EP per agi figure, which I believe included the passive 10% agi gain received through leather specialization...

According to my testing, the Agi proc itself gets also increased by 5% from leather specialization.

Originally Posted by Soldier62994

Big Daddy are the Cata bombs.

Very interesting. I'll add them in the upper post for reference.

Sarvius · 02/27/11, 6:41 PM

Originally Posted by Pest

According to my testing, the Agi proc itself gets also increased by 5% from leather specialization.

It does. And that was his point. EP value already takes into account the 5% from kings and leather spec. The "80 agi" professions are boosted the same as engineering, so inflating the value by a further 5% will produce inaccurate results. In any case it's not the practical dps benefit we're interested in but the relative benefit. Engineering is, by today's standards and understanding of mechanics, roughly equal to the other raid professions. It is by no means significantly better.

Whistles · 02/27/11, 7:14 PM

Originally Posted by lubricious

There are a number of boss effects (Lightning Rod being an easy example) that can require you to stop damage and react for a short time. The advantage can quickly evaporate if this happens during your buff. Other possible factors include increased damage phases (like Magmaw) where your cooldown status can either net you a significant benefit or not provide one at all.

As long as you use the buff intelligently this will actually increase the value of Engineering relative to static agility professions. Time where you aren't attacking the boss is time where the cooldown is still ticking and this increases the relative uptime of the proc during DPS periods. Atramedes for example is going to have a significantly higher effective uptime if you make sure the cooldown is always ticking during air phases.

Luminarå · 02/27/11, 9:27 PM

So here's a question I've come up empty on finding an answer to. If you're able to do only one [Formula: Enchant Weapon - Landslide] until you're able to have it on both weapons, which do you put it on first, MH or OH? Hopefully I haven't missed a reply or thread for this subject, but I'm curious here.

Fowltor · 02/28/11, 1:02 AM

Originally Posted by Luminarå

So here's a question I've come up empty on finding an answer to. If you're able to do only one [Formula: Enchant Weapon - Landslide] until you're able to have it on both weapons, which do you put it on first, MH or OH? Hopefully I haven't missed a reply or thread for this subject, but I'm curious here.

You'll be making more instant attacks with your MH, so that's where it goes.

javice · 02/28/11, 1:59 PM

Some drama started in my guild about prepotting and i have a question.

As assassintion specced rogue, is it worth it to prepot or not ? pot => stealth => go to boss.
Is the uptime of pot worth it over the time we lose of going to the back of the boss and start with garrot ?
And if prepotting is worth it, what would be the best way to do it?

just want to clear things up for my guild officers so they can stop qq'ing ....

seikei · 02/28/11, 2:10 PM

Prepot then stealth does not cost you any time on the boss, as you can do it as early as you want; if you are usually able to stealth behind the boss before the pull, you can pre-pot, then stealth behind the boss. The cost to you is in Tol'vir potion uptime. I would personally judge 20 seconds of the buff to be a worthwhile investment, but any uptime is better than nothing.

The only variable here is how tight your timing is with regards to the pull.