While this is true, in a raid environment in which you have multiple Rogues/vanq token users competing over a fairly finite number of helms, the marginal advantage of Engineering and being able to get other upgrades while passing a helm is a larger benefit, both personal, and to the raid as a whole than any minor amount of Agility.

Bank your mats to reroll professions once your number comes up for a helm, sure, but if you're already an engineer, getting the goggles and holding it for a while makes good sense from a loot efficiency standpoint.

Was It ever confirmed running Avalanche on the offhand was better then running dual Hurricane?

Unfortunately, the Marginal "advantage" of Agile Bio-Optics is only present if the alternative helm is Mask of Vines.
Assuming you can count the hit cogwheel as "spellhit" then:

Agile Bio-Optics+Engineering: 321 Agi, 208 Mastery, 208 Spell Hit, 113 Haste (48 from Gloves Tinker+65 Bracer Enchant).
vs
Mask of Vines+Leatherworking: 422 Agi (292 from Helm+130 from Bracer Enchant), 162 Haste, 92 Spell Hit (72 from Reforge, 20 from Glinting in Helm), 110 Crit.

And thus: 1531.8 ep vs 1519.4 ep in favor of Agile Bio-Optics

However if you change Mask of Vines to the easily obtainable Helm of Numberless Shadows, then engineering already starts to lose out (1551.4 ep from 422 Agi, 202 Spell Hit, 64 Mastery, 98 Crit).

When you consider the fact that there's two non-set epic helms with little contenders available as well (Tsanga's/Membrane),
then the only reason to keep Engineering is the small glimmer of hope that the next patch will bring 480agi Glove Tinker.

Which is unlikely.


Regardless, back to to the original question, which is the best 4pc to go for in the Long-Term (Full 372 BiS gear)?

For Mutilate, BIS currently appears to be as follows (all items heroic if available):

Wind Dancer's Helmet
Necklace of Strife
Wind Dancer's Spaulders
Cloak of Biting Chill
Wind Dancer's Tunic
Parasitic Bands
Wind Dancer's Gloves
Belt of the Fallen Brood
Wind Stalker's Leggings
Storm Rider's Boots
Mistral Circle
Lightning Conductor Band
Fluid Death
Prestor's Talisman of Machination
Organic Lifeform Inverter
Uhn'agh Fash, the Darkest Betrayal
Dragonwreck Throwing Axe

For the variable stat items (Ring + Legs), if Hit/Mastery pieces exist (Stormblast, possibly?) those will be best due to increased reforging flexibility, but Haste/Mastery (Zephyr) is otherwise just as good - in BIS you wind up with enough hit that you have to reforge some hit/mastery items to haste to get down to the spell hit cap.

If you can't get a good Wind Stalker's Leggings, Poison Protocol Pauldrons are the next best option for an offset piece.

Hopefully that's not the case.

Having seen both Zephyr and Windstorm Belts from Council of Winds, both which have Haste/Crit+Mastery, then perhaps Stormblast will follow the same formula of Hit+Mastery.

Unfortunately Armory doesn't show the second stat on the random properties, so time will tell.

Finally back and trying to get up to ”raid speed”, x-mas can make a dent in the best laid plans. I’m using Pawn to make snap decisions in game in the heroic dungeons. Spread sheets is the best tool
for planning the raids but keep it up and currant in heroics are too slow for me.

Looking at the new numbers Aldriana posted and trying to make a new Pawn scale falls short. If I only use the supplied numbers I end up with not taking all possible parts under consideration.

Will the scale be “good enough” skipping value for gems and weapon speed or am I better of using the supplied scale from the add-on author?

I also noted that the “ShadowPanter” web site is not up to date any longer. I do hope you will continue keeping this gem polished and shining as it’s now my only site for getting the in depth knowledge
of my long loved rogue!

We are 2 rogues in my guild atm, that are gonna raid.

And we got in a argument a few days back. and since it's my first time as rogue, leveled from 0-80 just before Cata came.

Our argument was about rotation and spec.

I use Armory link
and use the rotation told in guide from EJ

But the other 1, use this talant. wowhead link (2 points in Blackjack instead of Venomous wounds)

and don't use rupture in his rotation. and he tells me that i'm total wrong about being a rogue, because using rupture is doing that i make lower dps.


Normal i'm doing around 11k dps in a HC. depends on what boss ofc. but as far i can read in here. the rotation and spec i use. Are the 1 all says is the best.


What is right and what is wrong?.

Hyperspeed Accelerator - 1PPM - 240 haste for 12 seconds - 20 haste/sec - Use your EP values (24EP for Assassination)

Tazik Shocker - 4800 damage/2minutes - Averages out of 40 DPS

For both items, it's very situational, for instance, you could be out of range of the boss and the damage from the shocker would help, or you need to burst down an add. However, that being said, I'm quite certain both of these items require a GCD which then brings in the question of "Is it even worth using it?".

Your math is off on the Hyperspeeds. 240 Haste for 12 seconds on a 60 second ICD is 48 haste average case used on CD. Using the Assassination EP values from the guide thread, that's 57.6 EP average case, which is substantially better than the Shocker. (1 EP is worth just slightly more than 1 DPS for the most part.)

Hyperspeeds do not invoke a GCD, and can be macro'd into Mutilate without any problem, guaranteeing perfect uptime if you're so inclined.

We had a Stormblast ring drop yesterday so I can confirm that it has hit & crit. It's basically the same as the Lightning Conductor Band.

We have no information on the proc rate so can't give an exact estimate of quality. Its probably better than most blue options and probably worse than most epic options. That's all we can really commit to at the moment.