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Old 01/04/11, 8:15 PM   #211
Stileto
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Lothar
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
For Mutilate, yes - but Mutilate doesn't cap Expertise. Combat caps expertise... but it doesn't cap spell hit. As I say: no spec caps both of them. Combat caps one, Mutilate caps one, Sub may not cap either, no spec caps both.
Can I recommend that each guide (combat and assassination) be updated to include this bit of information. Until now, I thought that having both expertise and spell hit cap for combat was required for max dps.

This means that once combat rogues get to the expertise cap and yellow hit cap, then move any extra to haste?

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Old 01/05/11, 1:39 AM   #212
Wowslayer
Glass Joe
 
Troll Rogue
 
Wildhammer
Looking at the EP weights allows you to infer what stats are valuable/should be capped. Generally speaking, if something is important enough to be capped (like expertise or spell hit in this example) it's EP value will reflect that by being higher than the rest of the stats, like special hit is for all rogues. Once you reach the cap, its EP goes to 0 or some other lesser amount in the case of hit, which actually has 3 levels, but this is why they are all individually identified.

To answer your question, yes, yellow hit > expertise > haste, and any extra of those first two should be being reforged into haste or otherwise avoided.

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Old 01/05/11, 12:25 PM   #213
bariel
Glass Joe
 
bariel's Avatar
 
Undead Rogue
 
Chromaggus (EU)
So, my question is...
In the current content is there any PvE usage of Smoke Bomb at all?

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Old 01/05/11, 12:30 PM   #214
Dimirus
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
As a combat rogue, when im starting a fight, I find myself rupturing, slice and dicing, hitting one sinister strike, and then hitting my killing spree. I know i've read that I should be using KS when i've got my 30% buff up, but even from the beginning of a boss fight, should I be holding it back? Assuming i'd be able to use it once or even twice more in the boss fight if I use it in the beginning as opposed to waiting for my buff.

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Old 01/05/11, 1:19 PM   #215
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
If you know for an absolute fact that the fight will be of the precise length that means waiting on Bandit's Guile will cost you a KSp, it may be worth it; however, if you don't know the fight length that precisely (and you usually don't), its generally better to wait. This may cost you a KSp over the course of the fight, but that may not actually matter. For instance, which does more damage, 4 KSps doing +30% damage, or 5 doing only base damage? 4 * 1.3 = 5.2 > 5, so in fact its okay to miss one as all the others hit harder.

That said, in practice randomly spaced KSp's won't do 100% damage all the time, but when you work out how long you have to wait for Bandit's Guile to stack up versus how much damage you gain by waiting, it usually turns out to be worth it.

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Old 01/05/11, 2:43 PM   #216
Radial
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Deathwing
What are the PPM rates of Rogue poisons? If I am wielding a 1.4 speed dagger, is the PPM of my offhand posion determined by a 1.4 speed or a normalized 1.7 speed?

For PPMs in general, is there a guide somewhere that I can look at for them? I've read the Wiki, and understand PPM mechanics, but I do not know which PPMs are normlized, if any. I also do not know the PPM rates of various things, like Landslide or Crippling poison.

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Old 01/05/11, 3:07 PM   #217
Killme888
Piston Honda
 
Killme888's Avatar
 
Goblin Rogue
 
<FH>
Black Dragonflight
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
If you know for an absolute fact that the fight will be of the precise length that means waiting on Bandit's Guile will cost you a KSp, it may be worth it; however, if you don't know the fight length that precisely (and you usually don't), its generally better to wait. This may cost you a KSp over the course of the fight, but that may not actually matter. For instance, which does more damage, 4 KSps doing +30% damage, or 5 doing only base damage? 4 * 1.3 = 5.2 > 5, so in fact its okay to miss one as all the others hit harder.

That said, in practice randomly spaced KSp's won't do 100% damage all the time, but when you work out how long you have to wait for Bandit's Guile to stack up versus how much damage you gain by waiting, it usually turns out to be worth it.
A while back KS & BG's modifiers didn't stack and since KS' 20% was better than the 15% from BG, it was actually better to use KS asap. Now BG got buffed to 30%, KS does a mere 8.3% more damage, is that small change really enough deny KS at the risk of losing one though? Even if you knew the exact fight length there is still some rng to combat cp/energy generation that can easily get you that extra finisher or two and get your KS off cd.

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Old 01/05/11, 3:11 PM   #218
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
I'm pretty sure its since been confirmed that KSp now works properly with KS. If that's not the case, then that would indeed mean you should KSp immediately; but I don't believe that to be the case.

Assuming, however, it works the way I think it does: yes, you risk losing a KSp. However, for a fight of unknown length, the expected value of waiting is higher than the expected value of going immediately. That is: some portion of the time you will lose a KSp. In this case, you will do somewhat less damage. The rest of the time you will do the same number of KSps, and they will hit harder, resulting in you doing somewhat more damage. If you work out how much damage you gain and lose, and how often each case is expected to happen, it works out that on the average, you will do more total damage by waiting than by going immediately.

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Old 01/06/11, 1:29 AM   #219
Vonriel
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Cenarion Circle
I'm sure this was answered at some point in the past, but the answer isn't here or in the threads for combat or assassination. I understand that they say to use IP on MH and DP on OH, but it doesn't exactly say why, and I was wondering what the exact reason was?

I'm hoping to get a more in-depth answer than "because the sim says so," but if that's truly the case and the only reason, ok. The question arose in my mind because of the way I understand the PPM system to work; that is, instant on the main hand or instant on the offhand, the same number of instants should be applied over a given timespan even with different weapon speeds, so wouldn't the flat chance of deadly applying - and the built-in poison-proc for the other weapon - cause more instant procs than otherwise due to the increased amount of hits with the main hand?

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Old 01/06/11, 2:30 AM   #220
atroxes
Von Kaiser
 
Human Rogue
 
Auchindoun (EU)
Originally Posted by Vonriel View Post
I'm sure this was answered at some point in the past, but the answer isn't here or in the threads for combat or assassination. I understand that they say to use IP on MH and DP on OH, but it doesn't exactly say why, and I was wondering what the exact reason was?

I'm hoping to get a more in-depth answer than "because the sim says so," but if that's truly the case and the only reason, ok. The question arose in my mind because of the way I understand the PPM system to work; that is, instant on the main hand or instant on the offhand, the same number of instants should be applied over a given timespan even with different weapon speeds, so wouldn't the flat chance of deadly applying - and the built-in poison-proc for the other weapon - cause more instant procs than otherwise due to the increased amount of hits with the main hand?
For Assassination, the only real attack that would make your MH proc more poisons than your OH, would be Envenom. Mutilate uses both MH and OH, Rupture doesn't proc on application (afaik).

So, the increased speed of the 1.4 vs. the 1.8 gives you significantly more procs than Envenom can, that's why we stick with putting it on the OH, assuming equal level daggers in MH/OH and speeds of 1.8 and 1.4.

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Old 01/06/11, 2:35 AM   #221
Vonriel
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Cenarion Circle
Ok, that answers it for assassination, and honestly I can't believe I overlooked that. However, it doesn't answer it for combat, which uses significantly more main hand-only attacks.

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Old 01/06/11, 2:56 AM   #222
atroxes
Von Kaiser
 
Human Rogue
 
Auchindoun (EU)
Originally Posted by Vonriel View Post
Ok, that answers it for assassination, and honestly I can't believe I overlooked that. However, it doesn't answer it for combat, which uses significantly more main hand-only attacks.
The difference between the MH and OH speed is also significantly larger when using Combat weapons (typically 2.6/1.4). This just means that having Deadly Poison on the OH is even more important.

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Old 01/06/11, 3:00 AM   #223
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Originally Posted by Vonriel View Post
...combat, which uses significantly more main hand-only attacks.
It really doesn't. Combat wants to use slow/fast anyway (because of Combat Potency), which, when coupled with Main Gauche procs, means you actually get fairly similar number of attacks from each hand. Hence, you want the slower weapon (with its higher IP proc rate) to have IP, and the faster weapon to have DP.

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Old 01/06/11, 3:10 AM   #224
Vonriel
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Cenarion Circle
Thanks for the swift responses. I was doing the math just now to support myself when I realized where I messed up - I assumed a slower offhand than what you told me to use, since I had misremembered the information from the thread, and I had also forgotten to account for main gauche procs.

Last edited by Vonriel : 01/06/11 at 3:14 AM. Reason: Adding in recognition of the second response

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Old 01/06/11, 10:09 AM   #225
Probaton
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Hellfire (EU)
It is and they are. Presumably during the next actual patch (as opposed to hotfix).

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