Rogue Simple Questions Thread: Cataclysm Edition - Page 22

Ultionis19k · 01/15/11, 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by caiovmf

Sorry I think I missundertood something here, I thought our hit cap was for yellow, why do I need to hit spell? I think my idea of spell might be wrong some how. I just reforged most of my hit into mastery and now I have 479 hit, should I take that back and aim for the 1127 hit? (3/3 precision)

Edit: Sorry I found my answer, I didnt realize poison ticks required spell hit.

If you consult the EP table on the assassination guide you will see that while you are under the spell hit cap, hit is worth more than any secondary stat so, if anything, you should be reforging mastery into hit.

That was just an example, don't reforge mastery into hit. reforge expertise, crit or, in the last case, haste into hit until you are capped. Once you are capped, keep going until you can respec into 2/3 percision (1300 something hit) and get the last point of opportunity.

seikei · 01/15/11, 2:36 AM

Originally Posted by Shadowwaltz

It's tricky. You can only re-apply rupture (ie: 5-point rupture @ 1 second remaining to get a 21 second new rupture) if it has the same combo points as the rupture that's already on the target. You can't overwrite a 4-point rupture with a 1 point rupture; you'll get a message that says "There is a more powerful version of that spell active already." You have to wait til rupture expires completely to put up a new one. If you try to do a 5-point rupture when a 4-point rupture is already on your target, you won't add on to the duration. You will completely overwrite the 4-point rupture.

Because of that, I wait til rupture falls off and reapply it immediately. I use 3-, 2-, or sometimes even 1-point ruptures if I only have that many points when rupture runs out. I've found that the actual damage from rupture is negligible; making sure it's always on the target for venomous wounds is all it's really good for.

This is not what I've observed at all.

1) Reapplying at 2.1 to 3.X seconds will give you a new rupture with two extra ticks.
2) Reapplying at 0.1 to 1.X seconds will give you a new rupture with one extra tick.
3) You cannot replace a higher combo point rupture with a lower combo point rupture.
4) Replacing a lower combo point rupture with a higher combo point rupture does not result in an overwrite.

Shadowwaltz · 01/15/11, 2:57 AM

Originally Posted by seikei

This is not what I've observed at all.

1) Reapplying at 2.1 to 3.X seconds will give you a new rupture with two extra ticks.
2) Reapplying at 0.1 to 1.X seconds will give you a new rupture with one extra tick.
3) You cannot replace a higher combo point rupture with a lower combo point rupture.
4) Replacing a lower combo point rupture with a higher combo point rupture does not result in an overwrite.

1-3 is what I'm saying in my post. About #4, if you overwrite a 4-point rupture that has 10 seconds left with a 5-pointer, the new one will only have 20 seconds (glyphed ofc). When I overwrite one that has 1 second left, when I moused over the buff it siad 19 seconds (which means 20 in wow terms). I could be wrong, but that's what I noticed when I was trying to figure out how rupture works.

I'll check again tomorrow when I get on.

bennmann · 01/15/11, 3:13 AM

I notice that Exodus (currently ranked 10th in the world) is running 25m heroics with 3 rogues in Subtly spec. See the video and the World of Logs here and here.

Does this make sense or am I crazy? Don't you want at least one master poisoner raid buff? Are they exploiting some sort of subtly bug? I can't make sense of it, looking for help.

Freitzehn · 01/15/11, 3:23 AM

Originally Posted by bennmann

I notice that Exodus (currently ranked 10th in the world) is running 25m heroics with 3 rogues in Subtly spec. See the video and the World of Logs here and here.

Does this make sense or am I crazy? Don't you want at least one master poisoner raid buff? Are they exploiting some sort of subtly bug? I can't make sense of it, looking for help.

Their damage done is absolutely terrible, so it's obviously not a dps exploit. It's probably because subtlety rogues have 100% recuperate uptime (though you could get close to that as mutilate/combat and would probably still do more dps), and more importantly subtlety has a passive 30% ae damage reduction and a 90% uptime on feint when specced for survivability.

Seeing as how the fight was valiona, and how all incoming damage for a dps on that fight is ae damage.... I'm pretty sure it's because of subtlety's survivability.

Looking at Ice's subtlety spec pretty much confirms this, since he's specced into imp recuperate and 3/3 enveloping shadows.

Sarvius · 01/15/11, 4:25 AM

Blackout+cheat death. Almost certain that's why. Saving your raid the dps loss and the massive amount of damage of a blackout is a big deal. Notice that they were faring very poorly on dps relative to other classes (although ranged does have an edge - what's new).

Edit: Freit's point has merit, too. Damage taken shows the 3 rogues dead last. One of them was dead, but still.

osicat · 01/15/11, 8:42 AM

Hi.

Aldriana posted in the Cataclysm Raiding FAQ thread that Subtlety modeling is less complete and the numbers needed for more precise calculation is missing. I also did read a Blizzard post earlier this year that also mentioned that good data of subtlety pve dps is missing. The guess so far by Aldriana is ~5-10% behind the other trees in average damage. This and the fact the cycle is more complicated make the specc less apeeling.

My question is regarding the sublety changes in "Patch 4.0.6 Notes Update - January 11" posted in the blue post thread, post nr 23 done by Arbø. If the current PTR changes to sublety did go live, how big of a dmg increace would this be to the specc? Is it enought to make it viable if you ignore the significantly more complicated cycle?

Seiba · 01/15/11, 8:44 AM

Alright so these might be scrub questions but I'm a combat rogue running the Snd glyph. What I'm curious about is that with it glyphed and spec'd a 1cp SnD lasts 23 seconds but a 5cp SnD lasts 41 seconds, so would it be more beneficial to just use 1cp Snd's and save the extra 4cp considering i'd have to spend 5 times as many for only double the duration when i could be putting those towards more finishers?

My second question is i know it's a dps increase to save KS for the max level of bandit's guile but at the beginning of a rotation and whenever KS comes off cd and i have none or only the first lvl of bandit's guile is it still beneficial to save it until i get the 30% increase considering the time spent to get to it and the 2 or 3 finishers that could be taking time off with restless blades wasted?

Last but not least was wondering if anyone knew how much of a difference there is between specing into 3/3 Coup De Grace and 1/3 Ruthlessness or specing into 2/3 Coup De Grace and 2/3 Ruthlessness and whether or not its mandatory to do 2 and 2 to pull max deeps or if its fight based / preference thing.
Again thanks in advance and sorry if these are bad questions.

Feist-Mok · 01/15/11, 9:24 AM

Originally Posted by Icelink89

Is the expertise cap important for mutilate rogues? I've read in the mutilate guide thread that most rogues wont even gear for it. So, should I even bother? will being 1/1 expertise hurt my dps a lot?

The first point of expertise that brings you to 1/1 is no more or less valuable than the last point that brings you to 26/26. They both increase your DPS by the exact same amount by reducing your chance to be dodged by .25%. If it's not worth it to cap the stat, it's not worth it to pursue having 'a little bit' unless you're attempting to replace crit or white hit on an item and for some reason can't turn it into Haste or Mastery (this will never happen with any item currently in the game.)

Shalcker · 01/15/11, 3:10 PM

Originally Posted by osicat

Hi.
My question is regarding the sublety changes in "Patch 4.0.6 Notes Update - January 11" posted in the blue post thread, post nr 23 done by Arbø. If the current PTR changes to sublety did go live, how big of a dmg increace would this be to the specc? Is it enought to make it viable if you ignore the significantly more complicated cycle?

After fixing a few bugs with simcraft rogue modeling (like sub mastery having no effect at all), subtlety seems to edge slightly ahead of assassination. Which probably means additional damage fixes to spec in this ptr cycle are unlikely. The numbers seem to be there, the only thing left is actually executing them.

• Aldriana · 01/15/11, 3:18 PM

Originally Posted by Seiba

Alright so these might be scrub questions but I'm a combat rogue running the Snd glyph. What I'm curious about is that with it glyphed and spec'd a 1cp SnD lasts 23 seconds but a 5cp SnD lasts 41 seconds, so would it be more beneficial to just use 1cp Snd's and save the extra 4cp considering i'd have to spend 5 times as many for only double the duration when i could be putting those towards more finishers?

My second question is i know it's a dps increase to save KS for the max level of bandit's guile but at the beginning of a rotation and whenever KS comes off cd and i have none or only the first lvl of bandit's guile is it still beneficial to save it until i get the 30% increase considering the time spent to get to it and the 2 or 3 finishers that could be taking time off with restless blades wasted?

Last but not least was wondering if anyone knew how much of a difference there is between specing into 3/3 Coup De Grace and 1/3 Ruthlessness or specing into 2/3 Coup De Grace and 2/3 Ruthlessness and whether or not its mandatory to do 2 and 2 to pull max deeps or if its fight based / preference thing.
Again thanks in advance and sorry if these are bad questions.

1) I admit I haven't rerun the numbers on this recently, but historically the larger SnDs are better anyway, as while they're less cp-efficient, they're more energy-efficient, so when you account for everything they come out ahead. I won't swear that that's still the case, but usually that's how things work out. That said: the difference tends not to be particularly large, which is why the usual strategy is "refresh it with whatever you have" and not worry too much about exactly what size you end up doing - just minimize overlap.

2) Current modeling shows waiting to be better. If you're at lower Insight, its true that you have to wait longer, but the damage increase you get is also larger, so on the average it works out.

3) I'll have to check my numbers once I get the relevant computer working, but my recollection is that Coup De Grace is reasonably weak as a DPS talent - you take 2/3 because you need to get to the next tier to take Ruthlessness, and its better than nothing (aka Deadly Momentum), so you take enough to get to the second tier and call it good.

Ruthless, as I recall, isn't a *hugely* good talent either, but its clearly ahead of CDG. I seem to recall that the damage difference between them is of order 100 DPS - it might be 50 and it might be 150, but somewhere in that ballpark. As in: it's pretty clearly superior to go Ruthlessness. But its not crippling not too. If there were lots of short-lived targets to be burning in current content (for instance, like we had in ToC, with Portals and Shields and Snobolds and whatever that needed to die quickly), I could see that it might make sense. However, in my experience so far, there aren't, so I don't see there's a lot of reason not to go with the higher sustained DPS option.

Stony · 01/15/11, 3:26 PM

On heroic Valiona you need to enter the twilight realm(think Halion) to kill dragonkin adds.
The subtlety spec is specifically designed for that.
Damage will be incorrectly parsed since damage done on the twilight realm is not recorded for people who stay on top (again similar to Halion).

drastic · 01/15/11, 3:28 PM

I assume Kick follows the normal special attacks hit%, correct? So if I have 1332 Hit Rating (+2/3 Precision) then my Kick will never miss, right?

Also, does Kick follow normal dodge/parry chances? So I would need maxed expertise to ensure that my Kick was never dodged from behind?

::EDIT:: nvm 2nd part of post, found answer

• Aldriana · 01/15/11, 3:28 PM

Originally Posted by Shalcker

After fixing a few bugs with simcraft rogue modeling (like sub mastery having no effect at all), subtlety seems to edge slightly ahead of assassination. Which probably means additional damage fixes to spec in this ptr cycle are unlikely. The numbers seem to be there, the only thing left is actually executing them.

I'd argue that the problem with Sub in 4.0.x has never really been the damage output. I mean, it was behind, and that was a problem, but it wasn't so far behind that you couldn't imagine people playing it. The problem with Sub is and always has been that the cycle is so monstrously painful to maintain. Rolling 3 selfbuffs/DoTs is a serious nuisance and very hard to get up on a target in the first place. Shadow Dance is a miserable DPS cooldown to need to use. The reliance on Vanish/Ambush type mechanics to boost DPS is a nuisance. The complete and utter lack of any filler points means you don't get quite the same utility that you do from other specs. And so on.

In short: the problem is that Subtlety is miserable to play, not that the DPS is bad. Even if it were theoretically, say, 5% ahead, I wouldn't play it - situational awareness is too important to need to be worrying about a complicated cycle and hard-to-use cooldowns and random fluxuations in CP intake. If they expect PvE Subtlety to catch on in any meaningful way, they need to make it so we can drop Recuperate, Rupture, or SnD from the cycle and have a more typical 2-DoT cycle. They need to make Shadow Dance either less important from a DPS perspective or less painful to use. They need to allow room in the tree to take a few points of filler - which won't always matter, but sometimes will. They need to fix the way the spec *plays* if they want to see widespread PvE adoption of the spec. Tweaking the damage up or down a bit simply won't do it for most players.

Originally Posted by drastic

I assume Kick follows the normal special attacks hit%, correct? So if I have 1332 Hit Rating (+2/3 Precision) then my Kick will never miss, right?

Also, does Kick follow normal dodge/parry chances? So I would need maxed expertise to ensure that my Kick was never dodged from behind?

Lastly, does anyone know of an addon or chat setting that will allow me to show definitive proof that I Kicked a boss when I was supposed to (even if it was Dodged, need proof)?? I checked my combat log after a boss fight where my Kick was called into question, and I could find no mention of Kick in the log.

You need yellow hit cap (which is in the small hundreds of hit for all specs) to make your kick never miss. You don't need spell hit cap, which is the one at 1300-whatever.

Kick can be dodged and parried, but bosses typically can't dodge or parry while casting, which means, in practice, expertise doesn't matter.

Litodude · 01/15/11, 8:09 PM

I'm hoping someone has possession of The Twilight Blade that can confirm the proc rates of the weapon?