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Old 01/20/11, 2:07 PM   #361
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Originally Posted by dynapse View Post
If I wanted to take 3/3 enveloping shadows, what is the talent selection that results in the least dps loss? I realize that the raid FAQ suggests taking out points from elusiveness and initiative, however you are forced to spend at least 1 on either of these talents. Also out of curiosity and if at all possible, what is the ballpark figure for choosing to forgo said dps talents (I realize that sub has not been modeled all that closely hence I'm only interested in approximate numbers/percentages)
Rough (*very* rough) ballpark figures (based on the ShadowCraft model and whatever near-BIS gearset I happened to plug into it the last time I was using it) - basically, don't use this for more than rough order of magnitude:

shadow_dance:               1284.54123298
slaughter_from_the_shadows: 1273.28035967
relentless_strikes:         1022.9571757
sanguinary_vein:            992.149365486
energetic_recovery:         888.793178363
find_weakness:              621.066377498
opportunity:                570.784919971
honor_among_thieves:        467.461589084
improved_ambush:            210.172904252
premeditation:              160.690444327
preparation:                142.985418011
initiative:                 74.2384450639
elusiveness:                70.6243662864

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Old 01/20/11, 2:50 PM   #362
DrEnzyme
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Ravenholdt
Is that by point or as a whole? And is there a way to tell where precision falls?

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Old 01/20/11, 2:55 PM   #363
Ultionis19k
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Maelstrom
Originally Posted by Sarvius View Post

Everyone seems to be focusing on energy capping lately because they're not used to rotations being so tight.

The damage:energy of envenom alone - ignoring the buff - is superior.
I was discussing what to do when running into the "ceiling" of the energy pool, I understand how it works. The question was if the damage from envenom outplayed that of rupture (ignoring the envenom buff, because it is up 100% at the time regardless). You answered it in your explaination, but the rest was unneeded, there is no issue between clipping or pooling, because I'm at 120/120 energy.

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Old 01/20/11, 3:04 PM   #364
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Originally Posted by DrEnzyme View Post
Is that by point or as a whole? And is there a way to tell where precision falls?
That's per point.

So is this:

puncturing_wounds:          502.087850385
aggression:                 463.967650295
lethality:                  220.13590677
precision:                  202.234885738
improved_slice_and_dice:    160.849544934
ruthlessness:               148.480866385
coup_de_grace:              140.39786361
(Usual caveats about this being a very rough estimate, blah blah blah)

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Old 01/20/11, 8:08 PM   #365
Trollosaurus Rex
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Hunter
 
Anetheron
Does anyone know how to set-up Power Auras to only announce getting the damage buff (not the transfer threat buff) from Tricks of the Trade. Or, better yet, is there a mod that alerts you of that 6secs of 15%/20% damage buff?

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Old 01/20/11, 10:39 PM   #366
Crevan
Don Flamenco
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Darksorrow (EU)
I've noticed that the Deadly Scheme buff (from 4 piece t11 bonus) is consumed if your eviscerate is dodged/parried/misses. Is that the expected behaviour? I suppose it should work similarly to Cold Blood, but in the past I never paid attention to how CB works in this situation.

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Old 01/21/11, 4:44 AM   #367
Nihil1ty
Glass Joe
 
Nihil1ty's Avatar
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Ravencrest
I was curious how much energy affected energy regeneration as Sub. I believe sub is the lowest passive energy regen outside of energized recovery talent (could be wrong, so don't quote me on that!). Is there a certain amount of energy we regen per %? I apologize for such a plain question, but I have spent endless time trying to find info on this and I have yet to yield any. I also apologize if it is blatantly posted somewhere and i missed it! Thanks in adv.

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Old 01/21/11, 11:47 AM   #368
Mayunia
Glass Joe
 
Mayunia's Avatar
 
Undead Rogue
 
Maelstrom
Originally Posted by XeroFour View Post
...
I may fraps my own PoV next reset if anyone is interested in seeing it.
...
I bet a lot of us will be interested in that, that video can single handle lot of questions about the encounter.

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Old 01/21/11, 5:40 PM   #369
Toan
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Overlapping Envenom by 1 second: ~1k damage.
Capping Energy for 1 second: ~9k damage.
Wasting the combo points from 1 Mutilate: ~18k damage.
In a similar vein, I occasionally find myself in a situation where I've been pooling energy waiting for the envenom buff to drop with 4cp on my target, ~3s on Rupture left, and I'm approaching 90-100 energy. In such a situation I would envenom to utilize my cp and follow with a mutilate to dump energy as per normal, but then my rupture falls off and I'm left waiting a few seconds to generate the energy for another mutilate so that I can reapply a 4-5cp rupture. So my question is, how detrimental a damage loss is to be expected from not having rupture on my target for 2-4s (keeping in mind I've also lost Venomous Vim procs)? Alternatively, would it be better to apply a 2-3cp rupture immediately following rupture dropping off instead of waiting for the energy for another mutilate/rupture?

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Old 01/21/11, 5:47 PM   #370
Fowltor
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Ner'zhul
Originally Posted by Toan View Post
<snip>Alternatively, would it be better to apply a 2-3cp rupture immediately following rupture dropping off instead of waiting for the energy for another mutilate/rupture?
I can't seem to find the discussion at the moment, but if memory serves you're best off ALWAYS keeping rupture up. That is, even a 1pt rupture is more valuable than leaving it down. As you can use more and more CP with it, DPE just keeps getting better and better - But ideally it will always be rolling.

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Old 01/21/11, 7:58 PM   #371
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Originally Posted by Toan View Post
In a similar vein, I occasionally find myself in a situation where I've been pooling energy waiting for the envenom buff to drop with 4cp on my target, ~3s on Rupture left, and I'm approaching 90-100 energy. In such a situation I would envenom to utilize my cp and follow with a mutilate to dump energy as per normal, but then my rupture falls off and I'm left waiting a few seconds to generate the energy for another mutilate so that I can reapply a 4-5cp rupture. So my question is, how detrimental a damage loss is to be expected from not having rupture on my target for 2-4s (keeping in mind I've also lost Venomous Vim procs)? Alternatively, would it be better to apply a 2-3cp rupture immediately following rupture dropping off instead of waiting for the energy for another mutilate/rupture?
The short answer is that it appears to be better to rupture, regardless of size, then sit around with Rupture down. This has been hypothesized before, and we still need good modeling for it, but in terms of very rough estimates of the damage "cost" relative to the theoretical ideal of always having a 5pt rupture up:

Leaving rupture down for 1 second: 3.4k damage.
Using an undersized rupture: 450 damage per combo point.

That is: using a 1pt rupture is, damagewise, about the same damage loss and letting it drop entirely for half a second. In short: it currently appears that the right decision for rupture is to refresh it on the first GCD where you have combo points after the old one drops. And you should plan to always have combo points.

For those wondering: I do plan to update the ShadowCraft model to reflect this behavior. However, modeling it is harder than you might think, so it might take some time to get it working.

Also, to update the numbers that you quoted with more accurate numbers I computed while working this out:

Clipping one second of envenom buff: 1.4k damage.
Capping energy for 1 second: 8.9k damage.
Wasting all combo points from 1 Mutilate: 19.3k damage.

This is still numbers referring to one particular gear set; don't take these as exact numbers that apply to your situation. However, the general principals - it's better to cap energy for 2 seconds than to Mutilate at 5 CP, and it's better to clip the entire envenom buff - twice - than do either - are probably generally applicable.

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Old 01/21/11, 8:23 PM   #372
Trollosaurus Rex
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Hunter
 
Anetheron
I think I read somewhere that it's okay to clip Rupture with 2 seconds to go or less, as that clipped 2 seconds will be added onto the new Rupture. Is this an accurate assessment or did I misread.

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Old 01/22/11, 7:10 AM   #373
Ayliex
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Rogue
 
Silvermoon (EU)
Originally Posted by Trollosaurus Rex View Post
I think I read somewhere that it's okay to clip Rupture with 2 seconds to go or less, as that clipped 2 seconds will be added onto the new Rupture. Is this an accurate assessment or did I misread.
I tested it today with glyphed Rupture (I simply counted rupture ticks with and without clipping on last 2 seconds). I did not loose any ticks by clipping it on last two seconds. That said, sometimes you may be unable to reapply rupture if your old ruppture is still active and you get "more powerful spell is active" error.

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Old 01/22/11, 11:55 AM   #374
samforshort
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
If Deep Insight is just about to fall off, is it worth using a 4 or even 3 point evis, or wait and do a 5 point without it?

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Old 01/22/11, 3:19 PM   #375
contractkill
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Black Dragonflight
SnD in PTR:

I was wondering: if the way slice and dice is working on the PTR (effects Haste) is actually going to make it live, would this (plus the buffs to combat in 4.0.6) make combat > assassination for raiding?

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