Please don't muddy the issue.

I was answering this question. I'm certain there are plenty of cases where 1200 health per second comes in handy; putting recuperate up when and if the stars align is not one of them.

Actually they brought sub rogues because they could stay alive longer and do more dps than any other class under those conditions. Healing had nothing to do with it since they were self-healing with recup and mitigating dmg with a specific talent/glyph set.

Basically, the answer depends on what fight you're doing and what your guild's strategy is. *Usually* Recuperate is a waste of time. There are a few specific strategies on a few specific fights which require rogues to keep themselves alive for significant periods of time, which is where we see things like the Sub spec on the dragon twins. But I think in the *majority* of cases, Recuperate is a waste of time unless you have specific information that your guild wants you to use it.

So, if the question is: "should I ever use recuperate", the answer is yes, though fairly rarely and always because there's a specific strategy or plan in mind to justify it. If the question is "should I throw up a recuperate because... I dunno, seemed like it might be useful. I've heard healing is sorta tough now", the answer is always no.

How much haste would actually be too much for either Assassination or Combat?

You're trying to make a general statement based off of the results of a particular circumstance. Unless the strategy specifically says so, you should never plan to keep yourself alive using recuperate. You're wasting time, energy, and DPS on a less than mediocre self-heal. There are two fights discussed where a sub spec using recuperate has been accepted as the norm - and both are hard modes only (throne and double dragon). You shouldn't expect to use those strategies on normal mode. You shouldn't expect to use sub on other fights.

You pretty clearly have no understanding of the mechanics of this fight, so let me make it crystal clear for you:

On Heroic Dragons, there is a 'twilight realm' - think Halion - which is full of adds that need to be killed. While in this realm, you take periodic damage, need to dodge orbs that will do tons of damage to you, and will occasionally be targeted by the same sources of miscellaneous raid damage that affect folks upstairs. You will also gain a stacking debuff that increases the damage taken from all of these abilities over time.

The reason Rogues go subtlety is because they can stay down there and withstand that damage for a longer period of time before needing a heal - thanks to Enveloping Shadows, Feint, Imp. Recuperate, etc. - and deal large amounts of burst damage to the relatively low health adds that need to drop quickly. In addition, Shadowstep provides incredible mobility to dodge the various hazards in the room that often obstruct clear pathways between mobs, further allowing rogues to do more damage during this phase of the encounter. And on top of this, a 60 second Cloak cooldown allows us to go downstairs more often than anybody else as well, so we can do even more damage to these adds.

The reason the Sub rogues are often below the tanks on the DPS list is because most parses don't include the time the rogues are spending killing adds - like Halion, the combat log doesn't pick up what's going on on the other side of the port.

It has nothing to do with your point about 'I HEARD HEALING IS HARD, I SHOULD RECUP TO LET THEM SAVE MANA,' and everything to do with insane survivability means that we can go a longer period of time before we need to run back into range of a healer to get brought up.

The healing from Recuperate is largely insignificant on it's own. Recup is strategically useful for buying you time while waiting for other larger heals to land - Dragons, Heroic Conclave; or to get you topped faster when the entire raid needs to be topped or brought above a specific HP threshhold YESTERDAY - Chimaeron and raidwide bandaging comes to mind.

What it is generally not good for is using just because you have the combo points burning a hole in your proverbial pocket. Aldriana compared the DPS loss and healing from Recuperating instead of Envenoming to being somewhat akin to the DPS loss of bandaging for a few ticks. Now, situationally, bandages are pretty amazing, but I ask you, how often have you bandaged 'just to give the healers some breathing room' in all the time you've been raiding? Recuperate is better than bandaging, because it doesn't break on damage or on the move. But don't fool yourself into thinking that it's so much better that you should be using it all the time either.

Reinforcing how poor of an example you chose, for most encounters, Sub rogues use Recuperate because it is a DPS ability via Energetic Recovery not for the heal (including outside the twilight realm of hard mode V&T, the part that shows up in most of the logs you're looking at). Feist covers the rest of the fallacy of your specific example of the hard mode V&T encounter.

The rogue class is a DPS class and while your first priority is to stay alive, your first reaction to healing being difficult should always be to pay attention to encounter mechanics and boss abilities to avoid unnecessary damage and to use abilities like Feint, CoS, and Vanish to mitigate damage. You additionally should use healthstones, click lightwells, and stand in AoE heals and only after those maybe consider your base 20% of your HP over 30 seconds heal (only a couple encounters come to this). Doing abysmal DPS for a mild heal as your go to solution for the most part is not going to help your healers and in most cases will only extend the duration of the encounter and burden them further.

ShadowCraft basically assumes that you reapply dodged envenoms on the following GCD, so any extra envenom uptime you can squeeze out of it beyond that is basically bonus damage and will serve only to drive the value of expertise down further.

Have a very, very simplistic question on Mutilate, haven't spent a whole lot of time outside of Combat.

How much of a benefit is pooling energy before an envenom? I understand the mechanic of the buff and it allowing more poison procs, but I'm still stuck in that "dump your energy as fast as you can" mindset from combat, and would like to clean my rotation up as best as possible. I can take my rogue to a test dummy and work it out, but I figure I'd get a much more concise answer here. To give an idea of my numbers currently, I average around 13.8k DPS on Argaloth with BL, in 346+ gear (if those numbers mean anything for this question).

Also, a even more basic question, are mutilate's attacks from each hand visibly/numerically separate? Because while often solo questing I sometimes notice a double effect that I rarely notice in raids due to the flurry of combat text. If so, do they have a seperate crit chance, aka one eats CB and the 2nd won't?

Mutilate acts as follows:

• You can have two hits, one hit and one crit, or two crits
• Cold Blood will always trigger crits on both hands (meaning two crits)
• You’ll always have between 2 CPs (two hits) and 3 CPs (one hit and one crit, or two crits), but never 4 CPs
• Mutilate indeed shows up as two strikes (meaning you'll see, say, 12304 + 8920 on your screen/combatlog)
• Mutilate is a binary ability, meaning that it either lands or fails (except under some specific circumstances)

So, it seems like Mutilate acts as one ability (meaning CB will trigger crits on the two strikes composing the ability; and that CB properly adds 1 CP to the CPs generated by the two strikes).

Hope I've been helpful here.

[e]: added what Spoon said

When did I say anything to the contrary? My point is that there are times when the healing from recup will help the raid more than the damage from whatever finisher, and that the ability should not be completely dismissed. I never suggested that we should be going all recuperate all the time, only that it does have situational value. To look at my exact words "If you do massive dps and avoid all avoidable damage, but you die when keeping recuperate up the entire fight would have kept you alive, then you did not do your job". Ask yourself, how often will recuperate be the difference between life and death? Almost never. Thus, I am advocating the use of recuperate almost never. Sorry if you've never learned about logical structure before, but an "if: then" argument is not refuted by saying that the "if" almost never happens.