Elitist Jerks Rogue Simple Questions Thread: Cataclysm Edition

 02/17/11, 4:45 AM #541 shadowboy813 Von Kaiser   Shadowvenom Troll Rogue   Aggramar Edit: I may have been mistaken due to a mechanics change.
02/17/11, 8:05 AM   #542
seikei
Glass Joe

Orc Rogue

Area 52
 Originally Posted by StoicRoivaS While those are true statements, it's not really relentless strikes and energy per finisher that you really care about. It's energy returned per energy spent. "Free" CPs via your garrote opener and ruthlessness generate a fair bit of "free" energy via VW. But dumping 110 energy plus the cost of rupture minus the cost of relentless strikes sure seems like it would be less energy gained relative to energy lost. Napkin math just to sanity check my statement: 1cp rupture (from garrote opener) costs 25 energy, refunds 20%*25 = 5 energy via RS and refunds 4*10*60% = 24 energy via VW for a total of 4 "free" energy. 5cp rupture costs 110 energy (which is an automatic 5 CP after the "free" one from garrote) for 2 muts and 25 energy for the rupture, refunds 100%*25 = 25 energy via RS and refunds 10*10*60% = 60 energy via VW for a total of 50 energy lost. Feel free to correct anything I missed, but this fully supports my observations in practice.
You may overlooked the rupture glyph.

02/17/11, 9:56 AM   #543
Sculduggery
Von Kaiser

Bleeding Hollow
 Originally Posted by StoicRoivaS 1cp rupture (from garrote opener) costs 25 energy, refunds 20%*25 = 5 energy via RS and refunds 4*10*60% = 24 energy via VW for a total of 4 "free" energy.
This is misleading because RS does not reward a fraction of the energy. It's all or nothing. It might average to 5 energy over 5 uses, but overall, you should expect not to have the 25 energy returned using 1 combo point Ruptures.

02/17/11, 11:03 AM   #544
Brotherbear
Piston Honda

Orc Rogue

Frostwolf
 Originally Posted by Sculduggery This is misleading because RS does not reward a fraction of the energy. It's all or nothing. It might average to 5 energy over 5 uses, but overall, you should expect not to have the 25 energy returned using 1 combo point Ruptures.
That is correct, but what we're trying to do is determine the best behaviour over a large sample size, so averaging energy gains is a reasonable way to do that. That being said, he has missed the rupture glyph (for an estimated return of an addition 2*10*.6=12 energy). So 1 pt ruptures return about 36 energy on average for a net gain of +16 over the cost of the rupture itself.

That being said, you need to include the cost of Garrote in your calculations. 45 energy with a return of 6x10x.6=36 energy. So a 9 energy loss.

So the garrote + Rupture = a net gain of 7 energy at an oppurtunity cost of 2 seconds/GCDs.

Now where this strategy really takes off is if you proc Ruthlessness and can then redirect and rupture to a 2nd target. In which case you pick up another 16 energy.

So, on average, you gain between 7 and 23 energy at the cost of 2-4 seconds if you follow his protocol.

 02/17/11, 12:25 PM #545 Zaetrum Glass Joe   Zaetrum Human Paladin   Borean Tundra Hi folks, first time poster here. I've got a few simple (I hope) and probably newbish questions about my assassination rogue. I'm sure you all can help me out. 1. Ranged weapon What's the bonus of having a thrown ranged vs something like a bow? I know we can poison our thrown, but does that affect the speed at which DP is applied in combat or is it just for using throw or FoK? 2. Mastery Mastery increases our poison damage, which poisons/attacks does this increase include? IP/DP/WP? Are Rupture and Garrote included? 3. Venomous wounds Is there a benefit of stacking Garrote and Rupture on a target at the start of a fight for getting Venomous Wounds to proc? Thanks for any help!
02/17/11, 12:36 PM   #546
Felform
Glass Joe

Orc Rogue

Al'Akir (EU)
 Originally Posted by Zaetrum Hi folks, first time poster here. I've got a few simple (I hope) and probably newbish questions about my assassination rogue. I'm sure you all can help me out. 1. Ranged weapon What's the bonus of having a thrown ranged vs something like a bow? I know we can poison our thrown, but does that affect the speed at which DP is applied in combat or is it just for using throw or FoK? 2. Mastery Mastery increases our poison damage, which poisons/attacks does this increase include? IP/DP/WP? Are Rupture and Garrote included? 3. Venomous wounds Is there a benefit of stacking Garrote and Rupture on a target at the start of a fight for getting Venomous Wounds to proc? Thanks for any help!
1. You need a throwing weapon in the ranged slot if you want to FoK, it dosnt work with something like a bow, because damage of FoK is now FROM the throwing weapon instead of taken from attack power like before.
If you dont plan on FoK'ing on a particular encounter, feel free to swap to a ranged weapon if it has superior stats.

2. Poisons include all of which you said, IP DP WP and even Venomous Wounds, it does not however include Rupture nor Garrote, they are bleeds

3. Yes, opening with garrote is known to be the best opener for the moment, because it procs VW along with rupture, annd they can both proc on the same target

 02/17/11, 12:41 PM #547 StoicRoivaS Piston Honda     Idaar Blood Elf Rogue   Dunemaul Yes, thanks, I did forget the rupture glyph. And the reason I didn't include garrote in the cost is simply because both cases will garrote regardless for optimal dps, so it isn't really relevant to think about it either way. And, yes, RS does not return fractional portions of the 25 energy, but we're after the average case really, and that's the best way to think about it. The same could be said for VW's energy return. It's a chance, and with events with less than 100% chance, you just have to play the RNG sometimes. Same math with rupture glyph: 1cp rupture (from garrote opener) costs 25 energy, refunds 20%*25 = 5 energy via RS and refunds 6*10*60% = 36 energy via VW for a total of 16 "free" energy. 5cp rupture costs 110 energy (which is an automatic 5 CP after the "free" one from garrote) for 2 muts and 25 energy for the rupture, refunds 100%*25 = 25 energy via RS and refunds 12*10*60% = 72 energy via VW for a total of 38 energy lost. And same math with garrote included for completeness's sake: Spend: 45 garrote, 25 rupture Gain: 6*10*.60 = 36 VW (Garrote), 6*10*.60 = 36 VW (Rupture), 5 RS 7 Energy gained total VS Spend: 45 Garrote, 55 Mut, 55 Mut, 25 Rupture Gain: 6*10*.60 = 36 VW (Garrote), 12*10*.60 = 72 VW (Rupture), 25 RS 47 energy lost And following this method exactly, you also have the 60% chance in both cases to land the ruthlessness CP, which gives you a repeat of the 1cp rupture math, which is 25 energy spent for 36 gained, net return of 11. So factoring that in you could really tack on another 11*60% = 6.6 energy to both of these and call the math "complete".
 02/17/11, 12:56 PM #548 KinetiK01 Glass Joe   Kinetikk Undead Rogue   Dalaran Let's say I have 3 CPs and I have the option of either pooling energy and doing a 3CP Rupture right as it runs out, or Mutilating and doing a 5CP one. Which is the better choice? This is assuming I will not cap on energy.
02/17/11, 1:20 PM   #549
StoicRoivaS
Piston Honda

Blood Elf Rogue

Dunemaul
 Originally Posted by KinetiK01 Let's say I have 3 CPs and I have the option of either pooling energy and doing a 3CP Rupture right as it runs out, or Mutilating and doing a 5CP one. Which is the better choice? This is assuming I will not cap on energy.
It is my understanding that current math suggests higher rupture uptime turns out to be better dps than worrying about using rupture at high CP values. So if your choices are literally rupture at 3cp or lose some rupture uptime, I believe the correct play is to rupture at 3cp. Keep in mind that lower cp ruptures will force you to refresh sooner down the road, but provided you keep your uptime very high, it's been suggested, although not thoroughly tested, that this is better. On that note, has there been any legit shadowcraft testing on this or is it still supposition?

02/17/11, 1:38 PM   #550
KinetiK01
Glass Joe

Dalaran
 Originally Posted by StoicRoivaS It is my understanding that current math suggests higher rupture uptime turns out to be better dps than worrying about using rupture at high CP values. So if your choices are literally rupture at 3cp or lose some rupture uptime, I believe the correct play is to rupture at 3cp. Keep in mind that lower cp ruptures will force you to refresh sooner down the road, but provided you keep your uptime very high, it's been suggested, although not thoroughly tested, that this is better. On that note, has there been any legit shadowcraft testing on this or is it still supposition?
Although I don't have hard math to back it up, I am looking over the top assassination DPS logs on WoL and many of the DPS records are held by rogues that had ~85% rupture uptime (going as low as 65%) on relatively static fights like Chimaeron and Halfus normal mode. So although the guide might suggest that very high rupture uptime is key, in practice it seems that in such moments using a 5CP Envenom at the cost of a couple seconds of Rupture uptime leads to more DPS.

02/17/11, 2:59 PM   #551
StoicRoivaS
Piston Honda

Blood Elf Rogue

Dunemaul
 Originally Posted by KinetiK01 Although I don't have hard math to back it up, I am looking over the top assassination DPS logs on WoL and many of the DPS records are held by rogues that had ~85% rupture uptime (going as low as 65%) on relatively static fights like Chimaeron and Halfus normal mode. So although the guide might suggest that very high rupture uptime is key, in practice it seems that in such moments using a 5CP Envenom at the cost of a couple seconds of Rupture uptime leads to more DPS.
Looking at the top parses and replicating everything they do is just about the fastest way to find yourself in some serious logical fallacies. I'm not going to name and shame anyone, but there are quite a few *terrible* rogues in the world's best guilds. Simply putting up high numbers does not mean you're doing things properly. It has a lot more to do with total raid dps and gear at that point. You should only ever trust what the spreadsheets and sims tell you is the best line of play. If the best patchwerk parse in the world had 70% rupture uptime, does that suggest to you that we should aim to land at exactly 70% uptime, or does it suggest to you that that person would have done even better had they hit 90%? See what I mean?

 02/17/11, 3:53 PM #552 • Aldriana Mike Tyson   Aldriana Night Elf Rogue   Doomhammer Here's the best guess we have at the moment: 1) Rupture uptime is more important than rupture size. 2) However, if you can avoid downtime either way, larger is better. That is: a 5pt rupture just as the previous one drops is better than a 1pt rupture just as the previous one drops, but both are way better than a 5pt rupture with a 2 second gap from the previous one. This is not based off of the formal Shadowcraft model, but some scratchwork calculations I did based off numbers I pulled out of Shadowcraft. At some point I will try to put real modeling for it in Shadowcraft, but I've just been too busy to worry about it lately.
 02/17/11, 7:00 PM #553 StoicRoivaS Piston Honda     Idaar Blood Elf Rogue   Dunemaul Yeah that was basically my understanding as well, and while anecdotes from personal experience aren't necessarily worth a ton, they do seem to line up with that, although the gap is obviously small either way.
02/18/11, 8:04 AM   #554
Syncness
Von Kaiser

Night Elf Hunter

Caelestrasz
 Originally Posted by Lichslap Has anyone done any smart work on what the optimal AOE rotation is for Mutilate FoK Spam? Whatâ€™s best? 1. Just spam FoK. 2. Spam FoK whilst maintaing SnD (refresh SnD with Envenom using mutilate to build CPs when required). 3. Use FoK inbetween keeping SnD up as above whilst also maintaining a low Rupture Cycle. 4. Use FoK whilst maintaining low rupture cycle and ignoring SnD. Or something else
Get 2 Ruptures on 2 mobs ASAP. Then spam FoK like crazy. You should be able to spam once every GCD.

If your priority is killing adds, then you can let SnD drop.

02/18/11, 1:59 PM   #555
Schmoopy
Von Kaiser

Gnome Rogue

Stormrage
 Originally Posted by Syncness Get 2 Ruptures on 2 mobs ASAP. Then spam FoK like crazy. You should be able to spam once every GCD. If your priority is killing adds, then you can let SnD drop.
Even with redirect, thats a lot of GCDs spent getting ruptures up, but I guess it really depends on the length of time the adds will be up.

Maliorak I would just spam FoK (at least in normal mode) as the debuff window is only about 10 sec and you don't have time to rupture multiple adds. Thankfully you should have at least one rupture running on maliorak at this time.

 Elitist Jerks Rogue Simple Questions Thread: Cataclysm Edition