Rogue Simple Questions Thread: Cataclysm Edition - Page 5

Quinine · 12/15/10, 1:45 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Specifically, there is no current spec that finds it worthwhile to both Expertise and Spell Hit cap based purely on the numbers.

I may have misunderstood something, but in your Cataclysm Raiding FAQ, you stated that spell hit was more valuable than mastery, haste, expertise and crit in a near-bis T11 gear. Is it different at a lower tier of gear ?

• Aldriana · 12/15/10, 1:56 AM

For Mutilate, yes - but Mutilate doesn't cap Expertise. Combat caps expertise... but it doesn't cap spell hit. As I say: no spec caps both of them. Combat caps one, Mutilate caps one, Sub may not cap either, no spec caps both.

ieatpaperbag · 12/15/10, 8:58 AM

Originally Posted by FredRogue

I would say Gnome (+3 exp) for alliance and troll (haste buff) for horde but Orc AP buff is very close

3 Exp is worth less then the 1% crit that Worgen provide.

3 Exp = 90.0816 rating ~99.080 EP
1% Crit = 179.28 rating = 161.352 EP

These numbers are for Assassination, the Exp would obviously not be as useful for a combat rogue who should not dual-wield daggers. The numbers for Sub are similar, 103.594 and 197.208 respectively.

I do not want to argue the merits of various utility racials though so far Darkflight seems quite handy compared to Escape Artist even with a 1min Sprint.

PikaPika1006 · 12/15/10, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by ieatpaperbag

3 Exp is worth less then the 1% crit that Worgen provide.

3 Exp = 90.0816 rating ~99.080 EP
1% Crit = 179.28 rating = 161.352 EP

These numbers are for Assassination, the Exp would obviously not be as useful for a combat rogue who should not dual-wield daggers. The numbers for Sub are similar, 103.594 and 197.208 respectively.

I do not want to argue the merits of various utility racials though so far Darkflight seems quite handy compared to Escape Artist even with a 1min Sprint.

Gnome expertise racial applies to swords as well. Given that all our offhands for combat are daggers and there are a number of good mainhand swords, gnomes are worth more than you give credit for.

ieatpaperbag · 12/15/10, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by PikaPika1006

Gnome expertise racial applies to swords as well. Given that all our offhands for combat are daggers and there are a number of good mainhand swords, gnomes are worth more than you give credit for.

You're right, I did forget that Gnomes have expertise to swords as well but reguardless, Worgen still come out on top. As Combat, 3 Expertise is worth 135.12 EP and 1% Crit is worth 170.32 EP.

Panteo · 12/15/10, 3:48 PM

Is energy regeneration rate calculated into the EP rating for haste? I've been stacking hit and then mastery, but boy is my energy regeneration slow. With mutilate costing so much, if I make a teeny tiny mistake, there's a real possibility of SnD and/or rupture falling off.

• Aldriana · 12/15/10, 4:07 PM

The short answer: Yes.

The slightly longer answer: the problem you're having isn't actually the problem you think you're having - your energy regen is actually pretty similar to where it was for the majority of Wrath.

The long answer: http://elitistjerks.com/blogs/aldria...cataclysm.html

Cissalie · 12/16/10, 3:30 AM

Originally Posted by Sylvira

Problem with this is my 10 man group pretty often doesnt have a bleed which means I NEED to rupture. ?

[Glyph of Hemorrhage] will work if your only priority is to get a bleed up, but the rotation does need rupture/eviscerate for its dps.

Probaton · 12/16/10, 5:43 AM

Since Cata I(currently ilvl ~333 assrogue)'ve been wondering how to start my rotation. Opening with Garrote>S'n'D is obvious but I've been wondering where to go from there.

The one cp S'n'D leaves me enough time for either

a) Muti>Muti>Envenom, which nets you a fullpower Envenom, or barely

b) Muti>Rupture>Muti>Envenom, which nets you two halfassed finishers but gives you a few seconds more Rupture uptime.

It goes without saying that the next move after either opener is getting fullpower (4+) Ruptures and Envenoms running. I'm just wondering about the first few moves, not whether Rupture is viable or whether 4+ finishers are worth doing as both these topics have been discussed exhaustively.

Up until now I've been assuming that the extra energy regen/Venomous Wounds procs (a) would count for more than the dps loss due to half-power finishers but I figured I'd run it past the real nerds before I start running my mouth off at the rogue n00b in my guild who's been asking me for pointers.

Sakuru · 12/16/10, 5:53 AM

I have a question regarding the racial treats you get from goblin Versus the one you get from being Orc, and I can't remember seeing any comments about it other than what's stated in the Assassination guide.

Originally Posted by ieatpaperbag

Last Revised: 12/15/2010[/size]

Goblin
Goblins, the new Horde race, are one of the two better races for Horde. Passively, Goblins have a relatively ok 1% increased attack speed from Time is Money (not haste which would give you more energy regen). Additionally Goblins have a shared cooldown ability that will either deal some fire damage to a target (Rocket Barrage) or launch you forward (Rocket Jump) which can be quite useful as a melee class since some encounters require some movement to avoid boss mechanics or change targets.

Orc
Orcs, the other strong race for Horde Assassiantion rogues, have Blood Fury, a relatively strong DPS cooldown providing 1170 AP (at 85) every 2 minutes which can be used in conjunction with every Vendetta and/or Coldblood. Unfortunately, the other racials that are relatively strong for other classes are completely useless for Assassination rogues.

As far as I know, 1 AP equals to 1 EP, hence, from Orc's i get 146,25 EP from the racial (1170 x (15/120)).

When it comes to Goblins, I don't know how to calculate the EP value of the 1% increased attack speed, as I can't convert this to haste whereas increased attack speed does not give you any additional energy regeneration or other perks as haste would. That being said, the energy perks you would have received if the racial had been 1% haste (128 Haste rating) would be rather minuscule. Based on this statement, and here comes the question, if I use the EP value for haste to calculate the Goblin racial (128 haste rating * 1.2 = 153.6 EP), will this give me a somewhat (ballpark'ish) useful number, even if the actual Racial EP would be a little lower?

Coffin Burier · 12/16/10, 9:29 AM

Originally Posted by Probaton

Opening with Garrote>S'n'D is obvious but I've been wondering where to go from there.

I've recently started opening with Garrote>Rupture and tryed it both in 5 men heroic and in 10 men raids:
If Ruthlessness Proc: S'n'D>Mutilate>Mutilate>Envenom>Mutilate>Mutilate>Rupture
If Ruthlessness doesn't Proc: Mutilate>S'n'D>Mutilate>Mutilate>Rupture>Mutilate>Mutilate>Envenom

In ItemLevel 341, I usually started with Garrote>S'n'D>Mutilate>Rupture, but sometimes I found myself dropping S'n'D because of Envenom being dodged or simply not having enought energy to Envenom. With a Garrote>Rupture opening I find it easier to get started and keep a 100% Rupture uptime, but I've not considered if it could be a dps loss.

How much bad would it be to open with Garrote>Rupture?

Ipokeyou · 12/16/10, 1:46 PM

Regarding reforging

seeing as how Mastery only has a 0.1 higher EP value than Haste, after capping spell hit, should we reforge any crit to haste? or mastery only? Most people seem to be throwing everything at mastery and leaving haste alone. I was expecting some sort mutual attention between the 2.. I.E. reforge to mastery till xx% mastery, then reforge to haste till xx% haste.. then back to mastery and so on and so forth...

ieatpaperbag · 12/16/10, 2:02 PM

Originally Posted by Ipokeyou

Regarding reforging

seeing as how Mastery only has a 0.1 higher EP value than Haste, after capping spell hit, should we reforge any crit to haste? or mastery only? Most people seem to be throwing everything at mastery and leaving haste alone. I was expecting some sort mutual attention between the 2.. I.E. reforge to mastery till xx% mastery, then reforge to haste till xx% haste.. then back to mastery and so on and so forth...

This was breifly discussed already here, those EP values are for a rogue in full T11 with everything reforged. So, you should not be crossing inflection points as you get closer to that gear level.

Ultionis19k · 12/16/10, 2:12 PM

Hey guys, consulting Aldriana's FAQ about EPs I've run into a few questions. ( Table Below )

Agi 2.6 2.7 3.5
Yellow Hit 1.75 1.9 1.4
Spell Hit 1.4 1.4 1.05
Mastery 1.3 0.9 0.7
Haste 1.2 1.5 1.3
Expertise 1.1 1.6 1.15
Crit 0.9 0.95 1.1
White Hit 0.75 1.1 0.8

It's obvious that the setup for assassination is agil > ( hit ) > Mastery > Haste > Exp > Crit

Q1: What is the difference between yellow hit and spell hit, I've always assumed it was the same thing since we only have poisons and special attacks, which have the same hit cap ( ? )

Q2: Expertise is rated really low, does this mean that we should not be going for 26/26 now? My reasoning behind such a seemingly silly question is: The EP after the cap is 0, so this table must be before you've reached the cap, and mastery and haste are worth more. I've reached the cap however, because that seems rather counter-intuitive.

Q3: Crit has always been rated low, but this is REALLY low. I know with hunters there is a minimum amount of crit you want, is there a similar thing for rogues? The only separate tables I've found are for hit and EXP.

Q4 (speculation): Haste increases our focus gain and attack speed, the attack speed closely ties it with benefiting mastery (faster attacks = more poison procs = higher mastery EP weight ). Is there a point where haste surpasses mastery?

Sorry for all the questions, I tried to make them clear and thought out,

Ult

Originally Posted by Coffin Burier

I've recently started opening with Garrote>Rupture and tryed it both in 5 men heroic and in 10 men raids:
If Ruthlessness Proc: S'n'D>Mutilate>Mutilate>Envenom>Mutilate>Mutilate>Rupture
If Ruthlessness doesn't Proc: Mutilate>S'n'D>Mutilate>Mutilate>Rupture>Mutilate>Mutilate>Envenom

In ItemLevel 341, I usually started with Garrote>S'n'D>Mutilate>Rupture, but sometimes I found myself dropping S'n'D because of Envenom being dodged or simply not having enought energy to Envenom. With a Garrote>Rupture opening I find it easier to get started and keep a 100% Rupture uptime, but I've not considered if it could be a dps loss.

How much bad would it be to open with Garrote>Rupture?

I open with Garrote => SnD => envenom => Mut to 4-5 cp => Rupture.

My reasoning is that the one CP rupture does basically no damage, while using the earliest part of the fight to envenom helps get the poisons up just a little faster, and sets you up to comfortably get a good rupture going with plenty of time to get enough CP for a solid Envenom.

Cheers,
Ult

• Aldriana · 12/16/10, 2:50 PM

Ok, guys, new rule. No more posting "I open fights with..." unless its backed up with evidence as to why its relevant. That is: calculations (napkinmath or otherwise) indicating how much damage they do, extensive in-game testing, etc. I don't want to read page after page of "well here's what I do", and I don't think anyone else does either.