Elitist Jerks Rogue Simple Questions Thread: Cataclysm Edition

11/20/11, 2:27 PM   #916
Tumblebeer
Von Kaiser

Worgen Rogue

Xavius (EU)
It could be worth adding the post that started the discussion:

 The thing about energy is that you are in essence energycapped even if your energy is not at 100. As you should know being energycapped is not in itself a dps loss. What you loose dps from is the missed opportunity, the missed chance of actually performing a strike. And when you are in a streak of using every GCD that will eventually end in having 100 energy, you are in essence performing your rotation in a way that is by no means dependent on the actual energycost of a move. That means you could just as well have 10 energy after each strike as you could have 100. The energy wont matter until you at some point will have to wait until you can perform your next strike. In this particual case, you will be using every single GCD until a few seconds after your AR ends. And since you will at some point during that AR hit 100 energy, the energy you had during the first seconds of the fight are irrelevant, since you are performing strikes that are in no way connected to the amount of energy they consume. TL;DR: If you are using every CGD and eventually hit 100 energy, you will in essence have been energycapped during that entire time, even if your actual energy has not been at 100.

 11/20/11, 8:07 PM #917 nextormento Von Kaiser   nextormento Night Elf Rogue   Uldum (EU) Minimal gear differences will have hugely different answers. Furthermore, using tricks on another higher damage (and lower ramp-up) non-rogue would *very* possibly yield a significantly higher output than any of the optimizations you're running. Also, micromanagement over an already micromanaged time-frame is, well, not very profitable. When computing the damage output we do in a fight we have it easier, because each and every combination of procs/cps/energy happens enough times that we can average them out and come up with answers. There is no way to average an oppening sequence for it happens only once per fight, so the only thing we can do is average it with every fight. In fact I'd question the merits of such analysis: if I had to hazzard a guess, I'd say an average high-end raider won't pull the same boss (under roughly the same circumstances, gear-wise and raid composition wise) more than five hundreth times; 500 samples is enough to draw some conclusions, but certainly not big enough to be statisticaly significant as to figure anything game-changing (for comparison, take a default SimulationCraft output: it runs 10k simulations and yet it renders some uncertainty). The granularity of the question begs for no asumptions whatsoever; thus, omiting SS procs and asuming energy cap is very risky; using average stat weights introduces very big errors in the computation: the EP given are for the whole fight, but its value fluctuates dramaticaly all along the combat: for this particular instance, the value of any positive proc/buff is significantly higher (since it's used along with very powerful cooldowns). Now, in abstract you can follow two different ways to study this matter: one being the highest damage, and the other being lowest opportunity cost (a combination of the two is the only way to get to the correct answer); in-game they're usually mutually exclusive: if you study highest damage, you won't know how much energy could be lost, and if you maximize opportunity cost (energy/cp expenditure), you won't know how much more damage could have been achieved (since some of it would be ovekill thanks to, again, resource capping). That's why you need to study highest probable damage instead of highest damage, and/or lowest probable opportunity cost. However, to do so you need to know the whole sample space and asign probabilities to each event; given the buffs involved (weapon procs, gear sets, combat potency, etc) we may very well be talking about several hudreaths of millions of combinations so (/dramatization, but not too much), it certainly lies within the realm of what computers are there for. Now, the kicker is, as of now, we only have SimulationCraft for this kind of task, and so far I've never seen it decide for a clear winner in any oppener sequence argument. Last edited by nextormento : 11/20/11 at 8:13 PM.
 11/21/11, 7:33 AM #918 Tumblebeer Von Kaiser   Tumblebeer Worgen Rogue   Xavius (EU) I think you may be overcomplicating a really simple issue. First of all, we are working under the assumption that in the opening sequence a rogue will be global cooldown capped up until the point where your first Adrenaline Rush ends. Also, it is assumed that you will at some point during this timeframe hit 100 energy. If this is true (which it should be, even assuming worst possible RNG) you are basically replacing tricks of the trade with a sinister strike if you choose to use said tricks the second before the fight starts. What the original post is trying to establish is whether this sinister strike is worth more damage than the larger benefit the raid gains from having the tricks of the trade used 4-5 seconds in to the fight. The argument held amongst our rogues is from one point met with above napkin math (with several further explanations that were deemed unneccecary for this community) and from the other point met with the logical assumption that the raid gains more damage from giving tricks to another rogue while he is in green insight and KS. We have yet to produce any mathematical evidence for this point of the argument, yet the above math is not accepted as enough evidence for this side to accept it. Edit: I just realised that Xerofour described both sides of the argument very clearly in his first post, and that this post might have been an unneccecary repetition of what he said. Yet I still believe that a decent estimation could be produced without interating this tens of thousands of times. Last edited by Tumblebeer : 11/21/11 at 7:49 AM.
 11/21/11, 1:52 PM #919 Kroyfel Von Kaiser   Kroyfel Orc Rogue   The Maelstrom (EU) Shouldn't the first tricks be on a hunter anyway? Rogues don't seem to have anywhere close to the burst of some other classes at the moment.
11/21/11, 3:14 PM   #920
Naihan
Von Kaiser

Blood Elf Rogue

Bronzebeard
 Originally Posted by Kroyfel Shouldn't the first tricks be on a hunter anyway? Rogues don't seem to have anywhere close to the burst of some other classes at the moment.
You bring up a pretty good point: if people are going to split hairs like this to gain a non-guaranteed, arguably trivial increase in raid damage, then you probably shouldn't be "trading" tricks with another rogue to begin with. If your rogues are constantly out DPSing your Dragonwrath wielders, then there's a bigger problem in your raid than when to properly time tricks.

 11/22/11, 1:26 AM #921 Cynz Glass Joe   Cynxx Undead Rogue   No WoW Account (EU) Hi, What is the best time to use the racial troll? (Combat spec) I use it for the adrenaline rush with the 30% BG. But I do not know if this is the most optimized.
11/22/11, 3:50 AM   #922
Naihan
Von Kaiser

Blood Elf Rogue

Bronzebeard
 Originally Posted by Cynz Hi, What is the best time to use the racial troll? (Combat spec) I use it for the adrenaline rush with the 30% BG. But I do not know if this is the most optimized.
You should absolutely avoid using this during AR; your energy-capping will be through the roof, at least that's what I experience. If you're energy-capping during KS, don't use it during KS. Every time I use it during KS, I energy-cap badly. I find that using it during bloodlust/heroism/timewarp doesn't lead to energy-capping for me, but this may be different for you. Other than that, you can use it on cooldown, or time it with buffs.

 11/23/11, 7:51 PM #923 Shinryu Glass Joe   ??? Human Hunter   Misha Hopefully a simple enough question, are there any good ovale scripts for rogue besides the rather icky default ones? I noticed feral druids have a surprisingly good looking one, is there anything like that for (preferably) mut or combat rogues?
 11/24/11, 1:49 AM #924 PikaPika1006 Von Kaiser     Halsey Pandaren Rogue   Illidan I played around with writing a rogue script in the past for Ovale. Only spec I spent a decent amount of time working on was combat, but the other two are functional enough to help someone hit the ground running on an alt or similar. None of them have cooldown use suggestions, as I find those get in the way more than help with these kinds of addons. Ovale.zip
 11/26/11, 2:04 AM #925 Himmel Von Kaiser     Kensai Night Elf Rogue   Aerie Peak (EU) Assassination I'm wondering is there a more convenient way of switching from Mutilate to Backstab once boss is on low HP than using a different button? The only thing that sustains one through life is the consciousness of the immense inferiority of everybody else, and this is a feeling that I have always cultivated. Oscar Wilde, "The Remarkable Rocket"
11/26/11, 3:19 AM   #926
saedo
King Hippo

Night Elf Rogue

Gorgonnash
 Originally Posted by Himmel I'm wondering is there a more convenient way of switching from Mutilate to Backstab once boss is on low HP than using a different button?
I suppose you can use a modifier macro. Something like...

/cast [mod:ctrl] Backstab; Mutilate

 11/26/11, 3:26 AM #927 Furtim Piston Honda   Furtim Troll Rogue   Kargath If by more convenient you mean have it switch automatically to backstab when you hit 35% while spamming the same button, then no, there is no legitimate way to do it.
 11/26/11, 8:04 AM #928 Tumblebeer Von Kaiser   Tumblebeer Worgen Rogue   Xavius (EU) Well, technically you can. Have your backstab button and your mutilate button on separate barsets, using for example Bartender, then bind the paging between these two bars to a keybind. When the boss hits 35%, you press your keybind to page the bars, and you can keep spamming the same button for the desired effect. I would not however recommend this, since you will not be able to easily swap between using mutilate and backstab should you end up standing in front of the boss.
 11/27/11, 8:15 PM #929 bigredpaul Glass Joe   mollywog Gnome Rogue   Drenden My toon's professions are mining and skinning, but it seems like everyone thinks LW and JC are the best professions. Should I really switch over?
 11/27/11, 8:53 PM #930 Velgore Glass Joe     Velgour Night Elf Rogue   Dragonblight (EU) Short answer: Yes! JC gives you the three epic Gems that can grant you a substancial ammount of Agility as is the same with LW with the wrist enchant. Stacking these two professions is a wise decision. Skinning gives you a Crit increase... one of the worst combat ratings and Mining gives you Health... which does nothing for your damage output! However, only switch over if you are serious about getting that extra DPS out for raids.... otherwise keep them two professions for making gold. Hint: if you do decide to switch your professions, farm all the materials you will need with your current gatering professions.... it will save you money... but maybe not time! /Vel

 Elitist Jerks Rogue Simple Questions Thread: Cataclysm Edition