Rogue Simple Questions Thread: Cataclysm Edition - Page 70

Iroared · 01/25/12, 2:14 PM

I might have to play my rogue for our spine hc attempts, are there any specific tricks for maximum burst on tendons? I've read the cataclysm mechanics threat, the build linked there has 1 point in serrated blades - what for? Surely at least enveloping shadows would provide more benefit to the raid, or maybe more points in precision for minor increase in WP damage (since rupture won't be used at all here)?
Regarding glyphs, I assume hemo and backstab; is third still SnD or would ShD provide bigger benefit here? Also, I shouldn't use glyph of TotT to provide more raid damage?

What kind of damage per lift should I be looking at in full normal gear + 406 daggers?

Hidden · 01/25/12, 5:56 PM

Originally Posted by Iroared

I might have to play my rogue for our spine hc attempts, are there any specific tricks for maximum burst on tendons? I've read the cataclysm mechanics threat, the build linked there has 1 point in serrated blades - what for? Surely at least enveloping shadows would provide more benefit to the raid, or maybe more points in precision for minor increase in WP damage (since rupture won't be used at all here)?
Regarding glyphs, I assume hemo and backstab; is third still SnD or would ShD provide bigger benefit here? Also, I shouldn't use glyph of TotT to provide more raid damage?

What kind of damage per lift should I be looking at in full normal gear + 406 daggers?

Well, I'll just quickly go over it:
Spec
Using standard spec (7/3/31 for Hemo, 8/2/31 for BS) to keep up DPS on Amalgamations without giving up much (if any) Tendon DPS

Glyphs
SnD glyph is required for SnD not to run out during Tendon phase
Eviscerate glyph is recommended because Eviscerate makes up for a lot of Tendon damage
Backstab/Hemorrhage glyphs (depending on spec) are recommended to optimize overall DPS on Amalgamations and Tendons
Shadow Dance glyph makes up for no additional Find Weakness uptime on Tendons due to Vanish so it only provides a fairly low damage gain that's usually negated by other glyph choices even on Tendons

Gear
2pcT12/2pcT13 is recommended, Valor Points trinket is really useful because it's ready for every Tendon phase, otherwise standard Sub gear

Spine Rotation
5cp Recup shortly before Amalgamation starts casting explosion
CloS after beginning of explosion cast
5cp SnD during explosion cast
Shadowstep during explosion cast (for the +30%)
TotT when Amalgamation is dead
Spam /tar boss2 macro

Once the Tendon is attackable:
(Hemo if no bleeds in raid and Hemo spec)
Shadow Dance + Berserking + Trinket
Ambush
Eviscerate (Rupture instead if no bleeds in raid and BS spec)
Ambush + Premeditation
Eviscerate
Ambush
Ambush
Eviscerate
Vanish + Ambush
<Standard filler + 5cp Eviscerate rotation>

CD Rotation
This depends largely on how fast your raid is between tendons but what works for us is:
First Amalgamation >90% Shadow Dance
First Tendon phase Shadow Dance + Trinket + Berserking + Vanish
Second Amalgamation Preparation
Second Tendon phase Shadow Dance + Trinket + Vanish
Third Amalgamation >90% Shadow Dance
Third Tendon phase Shadow Dance + Trinket + Berserking
Fourth Tendon Shadow Dance + Trinket
Fifth Amalgamation >90% Shadow Dance
Fitfth Tendon Shadow Dance + Trinket + Berserking + Vanish (+Bloodlust)
Sixth Amalgamation Preparation
Sixth Tendon Shadow Dance + Trinket + Vanish

Damage per tendon phase in my gear (398 average) is 1.1mio-1.4mio without Bloodlust and 1.6mio-1.8mio with Bloodlust.

Edit: Forgot an important part in the rotation. I also forgot noting that this is obviously only the way I've been doing it and especially the CD rotation depends on your raid setup and tactic used.

Iroared · 01/26/12, 9:33 AM

Thanks, I'll try today;
Is hemo spec absolutely viable here? I'd be going backstab first, I'm pretty surprised you mention rupture here. Is there a point in it, wouldn't it be easier to put up a bleed via hemo? Or the fact that I can free up a glyph slot for evis is more important than the slight loss of damage from rupture vs evis?
By the way, shadow dance doesn't refresh master of subtlety, wouldn't it be more benefitial to use vanish first?

Edit: nvm, we have an arms warrior putting up bleeds; I was getting 1-1.2m damage without melee haste buff. Apparently ip+dp does slightly more damage than wp+wp. I tried several cooldown layouts, here are my considerations:
As the amalgamation explodes, I refresh buffs, CloS, shadowstep it, tricks our ret, vanish. Then open with target/premed/trinket/ambush macro, eviscerate, few backstabs, evis, shadowdance, etc. This way master of subtlety + 2pc energy cost reduction is spent on backstabs, is it a considerable loss? I could open with shadowdance, and use vanish later, or use shadowdance almost immediately after vanish so it benefits from 10% damage increase, but then I'm not sure expose weakness would last the entire phase.

Also, I have vanish ready for every lift - is that fine, or does that mean we are too slow on killing the amalgamation (we never got further than 3rd lift so far)?

Sulphuric · 01/26/12, 10:47 AM

You should always open with tricks (2x t13) -> trinket -> vanish -> ambush

It's only for the last tendon expose you'll be unable to open with vanish, but you've got heroism to make up for that

And scrap hemo, it's not really viable. As for Rupture/Eviscerate, it's rather even, but Eviscerate leads to more rng, whether you consider that good or bad is up to you to handle

Iroared · 01/26/12, 11:41 AM

Oh, updated my previous post before I updated the page and saw your reply.
Regarding reforging, I reforged completely out of expertise, so my stats are roughly 3200 haste - 1800 crit - 900 hit - 600 mastery - 200 expertise. Is spellhit better than mastery here?
I don't have heroic t12, is it worth switching out 397 t13 for 378, or is 4pc roughly as good as 2+2?

Sulphuric · 01/26/12, 5:15 PM

You want to use the trinket before vanishing because 1) it breaks stealth and 2) you really want the trinket benefit for the first Ambush which benefits damage from Shadowstep. And use Shadow Dance on the third gbc (after a ambush + finisher) so it alligns with the tricks/reduced energy cost & Master of Sublety, there's no reason to delay it because you'll 100% uptime on Find Weakness regardless.

Synek · 01/26/12, 6:44 PM

Originally Posted by Sulphuric

And scrap hemo, it's not really viable.

Any reason for this? You should get ~6 procs, so a 45k Hemo (ballpark figure) should still do ~35k damage in bleed damage, if not more depending on your crit. An extra Ambush is certainly not more valuable, especially when the extra Find Weakness uptime is irrelevant.

The fact that the Hemo may not crit will of course have an effect, so if you'd rather not dance with RNG then that might be a reason to drop the glyph. But otherwise, it should do more damage than the alternatives, on average.

edit: Silly me misunderstood what you meant.

Hidden · 01/26/12, 7:25 PM

Originally Posted by Sulphuric

You should always open with tricks (2x t13) -> trinket -> vanish -> ambush

It's only for the last tendon expose you'll be unable to open with vanish, but you've got heroism to make up for that

And scrap hemo, it's not really viable. As for Rupture/Eviscerate, it's rather even, but Eviscerate leads to more rng, whether you consider that good or bad is up to you to handle

Well, why would Hemo not really be viable?
E.g. taking a look at your Spine 25 HC wipes a week ago, you were doing roughly the same damage I was usually doing on the first tendon - only using that one because it's always 100% up and usually nobody's dead or gripped there. That's with me using a Hemo only spec without 4% physical damage debuff, without getting TotTed myself and with an average iLevel that's roughly 5 lower than yours.
Considering I got the #2 Baleroc HC Sub log (without sunder armor even), #1 Ragnaros HC Sub log, and #2 Spine HC Sub log with a broken dagger mid-combat using that spec, I'd definitely consider using Hemo for overall DPS viable as well.

Additionally, comparing my Rupture total to my Eviscerate average damage on tendons I concluded that at least for me Rupture was a considerable damage loss there, so even in a Backstab spec it could be viable to use the Hemo glyph as third glyph and begin with a Hemo to apply a bleed as soon as possible if your raid has no reliable bleeds.

Feel free to show me any proofs of Hemo (both the glyph and the spec) not being viable, otherwise I'll just go with my napkin maths and logs and say it is a viable alternative especially if you don't have a MH dagger on par with your MH sword/axe/mace - and I'd consider that piece of information quite useful for everybody starting on Spine HC, especially for those who have to hop in with their alts for tendon damage.

Pookizz · 01/27/12, 4:21 AM

Originally Posted by Iroared

tricks our ret

You don't wanna tricks a ret because Avenging Wrath overwrites the +dmg buff.

huldu · 01/29/12, 7:33 PM

I was wondering, leveling a sub rogue, would it be better to use wound poison rather than instant on both weapons?

yanhero · 01/30/12, 12:03 AM

Hey Pookizz, I'm very curious what spec/glyphs you use. Do you get 3/3 coup de grace n 1/3 precision? And do you use evis glpyh? what about tricks glyph?

Pookizz · 01/30/12, 6:30 AM

Originally Posted by yanhero

Hey Pookizz, I'm very curious what spec/glyphs you use. Do you get 3/3 coup de grace n 1/3 precision? And do you use evis glpyh? what about tricks glyph?

On Heroic Spine of DW, I use 3/3 Coup de Grace, 1/3 Precision (and I'm reforging around the yellow hit cap). And regarding the glyphs I use the Shadow Dance glyph instead of the Hemorrhage glyph. I also remove the TotT glyph since you tricks right before the tendon phase and the energy lost isn't used anyway.

Kromos · 01/30/12, 10:58 PM

really noob question, does BF transfer the damage increased via Bandit's Guile?

Naihan · 01/31/12, 3:09 AM

Yes, it transfers the increase in damage you get from Bandit's Guile. If I'm misunderstanding you and you're asking if it "double-dips" (i.e. gets the damage bonus two-fold), then no.

Impatientus · 01/31/12, 8:11 PM

Originally Posted by Caysa

The combat-compendium is a great help, but it seems slightly outdated on opener for singetarget(?). With T13 2-set, best way to do it feels like:
2-3 points S'n'D--->ToTT--->Wait to T13 2-set bonus wears off--->pop KS(from what I gathered this should now be used on CD, regardless of BG)-->AR at low energy after this.

I could not find this information after some searching, so hopefully someone can shed some light on this.

Two points I'd like to comment / recommend on:

1. Get SnD up as fast as possible, meaning after just 1 SS hit, with 1 cp or 2 cp if it procs.

With so many things depending on the number of melee swings e.g. melee damage (roughly 30% of your DPS), MG damage, CP procs feeding your cp builders and finishers etc etc, I think it's imperative to maintain an SnD uptime as close to 100% as possible.

There's also a trick you can use on bosses that have trash close to them. If the last mob before the boss pull dies with unused CPs, re-direct them on the boss, and then start the fight with SnD already up = profit.

2. Use tricks before the boss pull, and then try pooling energy before casting Tricks each time.

The reason for this is to ensure that you have enough energy to make use of the 6 second window of "discounted" cost.

SS requiring 30 energy instead of 39 means nothing if you're currently sitting on 15 energy, so I'd suggest pooling energy when Tricks has 2 seconds left off its cooldown.

Now these are just my thoughts on the matter, I haven't seen them discussed on other threads and I'd appreciate any thoughts or different approaches.