Rogue Simple Questions Thread: Cataclysm Edition - Page 74

Shadire · 03/06/12, 8:51 AM

Comparing dps is not only about comparing top parses as they are prone to errors and may be result of very specific tactics, buff stacking or uncommon luck.

So I suggest thinking more in terms of median/average from parses. And on Ultraxion hc median for combat is almost 39k while for subtlety it is below 35k.

Not to mention that you linked normal Ultraxion parses while on heroic mechanics might be much less forgiving for subtlety than combat (Fading Light can easily mess your rotation if you do not play safely).

Brotherbear · 03/06/12, 11:35 AM

There's lots of different ways to decide the best spec for dps, but really it comes down to the role/need of your raid for heroic content. Topping meters is nice. Winning fights is better.

Morchuk is best done with a sub spec with 3/3 enveloping shadows (though that can come down as the buff ramps up) simply because your main job is going to be to "tank" the stomps. Especially for your first kill, having the luxury of a 9 second feint with a 10 second cd will make it much easier on your healers as far as you never taking a full damage stomp.

Yorshj depends on your role. If you're on the oozes, then I like combat for the ability to redirect off the add onto the boss every phase and because AR is self-targetted. Sub is also excellent due to shadowstep and burst if your raid is having issues dropping the add in time. If you're on the boss full time, then use whatever spec you're best with since they're all pretty comparable.

I wouldn't worry about the black ooze adds as combat. Honestly it's mostly meter padding for rogues since (at least on 25man) your actual contribution is going to be pretty minimal compared to Boomkin/Mage/etc. That being said, for learning the fight it's worth cleaving them...especially when you get two sets and have to run to an ooze with adds still alive (cleaving off the ooze onto adds).

Zon'ozz: Combat if you're cleaving off the boss onto claws (which you probably will be). That being said, I'm also strongly tempted by Assassination/Sub since the last black phase is "ignore the adds" and having boss focused cooldowns that won't teleport you out of range (Hi Killing Spree!) is pretty strong. Also going into Assassination's execute phase with maximum debuffs on the boss is fantastic.

Hagara: Sub to walk through ice walls and to shadowstep to the boss on phase transitions. Combat for ice tomb cleaves. Assassination if you like it best I suppose, but the other two are stronger in general for this fight. Again it depends on what's holding your raid back.

Ultra: Combat is the easiest one to do well on this fight. Hemo-sub is supposed to be pretty excellent if your healers are having issues, but it all depends on your comfort level with the spec. I've done normal Ultra as Assassination with Vendetta glyphed instead of Backstab, and the damage wasn't actually as bad as people assume (still worse than combat, but not horrifically so) and it has the added bonus of boosted heals and having GCDs free to use feint on cooldown. But yeah, combat is the easiest/best for pure dps.

Warmaster: If you're issue is on phase 1, then yes combat is the clear winner. Being able to cleave the drakes is pretty sweet. However in phase two there are strong arguments for all three specs since the key here is survival (Sub) and burning single targets (Sub/Mut). So again, depends on your raid.

Spine: See above. Sub for tendons, combat for cleaving bloods. I haven't done this fight yet though, so my advice is purely theoretical.

Madness: Depends on strat. Assassination for AoE snare on the healing bloods and for AoE spellweaving procs is supposed to be pretty sweet though.

Sarvius · 03/06/12, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Brotherbear

I wouldn't worry about the black ooze adds as combat. Honestly it's mostly meter padding for rogues since (at least on 25man) your actual contribution is going to be pretty minimal compared to Boomkin/Mage/etc. That being said, for learning the fight it's worth cleaving them...especially when you get two sets and have to run to an ooze with adds still alive (cleaving off the ooze onto adds).

Most of the rest of what you said I'm in line with, but I heartily disagree with this idea. Meter padding means doing damage that doesn't actually help you complete the fight, so cleaving ghouls on p1 HLK or cleaving off of a regenerative blood - were it not for spellweaving potentially making that a gain on productive dps targets. Sometimes I'll BF from the tendon onto a nearby corruption on the last plate of spine just for fun and because it doesn't cost me anything while AR is up.

AoE damage which is a dps gain for both yourself and your raid, on targets that you're supposed to be killing, isn't meter padding. A boomkin may do more total damage to each set of black bloods, but you're still doing more total dps. Which is a very important distinction. Killing the adds 3 seconds faster will not have a huge bearing on your ability to complete the fight, but killing the boss faster will. So a warlock might do more aoe dps by dropping an infernal, but he's not doing the dps that he should be - which is sufficient aoe dps not to strain healers, and then the highest single-target dps he can manage. Rogues still do roughly the same dps to the boss while contributing significant cleave damage, which is one of the most beneficial contributions of anyone in the raid.

Increasing your overall dps on productive targets is never really meter padding, in my opinion, and it's even less so in this case where rogues have a very solid contribution. I took the concept rather more seriously than I'm sure you intended, but people tend to take things very literally around here. Or read a small snippet and think that it's the whole picture, then spread it as absolute truth.

Brotherbear · 03/06/12, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by Sarvius

Most of the rest of what you said I'm in line with, but I heartily disagree with this idea. Meter padding means doing damage that doesn't actually help you complete the fight, so cleaving ghouls on p1 HLK or cleaving off of a regenerative blood - were it not for spellweaving potentially making that a gain on productive dps targets. Sometimes I'll BF from the tendon onto a nearby corruption on the last plate of spine just for fun and because it doesn't cost me anything while AR is up.

AoE damage which is a dps gain for both yourself and your raid, on targets that you're supposed to be killing, isn't meter padding. A boomkin may do more total damage to each set of black bloods, but you're still doing more total dps. Which is a very important distinction. Killing the adds 3 seconds faster will not have a huge bearing on your ability to complete the fight, but killing the boss faster will. So a warlock might do more aoe dps by dropping an infernal, but he's not doing the dps that he should be - which is sufficient aoe dps not to strain healers, and then the highest single-target dps he can manage. Rogues still do roughly the same dps to the boss while contributing significant cleave damage, which is one of the most beneficial contributions of anyone in the raid.

Increasing your overall dps on productive targets is never really meter padding, in my opinion, and it's even less so in this case where rogues have a very solid contribution. I took the concept rather more seriously than I'm sure you intended, but people tend to take things very literally around here. Or read a small snippet and think that it's the whole picture, then spread it as absolute truth.

You raise a good point and I shouldn't have used the phrase "meter padding" as I did. What I meant was that there is so much AoE damage that I have found that the dps gain in cleaving to adds (which will kill them off one at a time) is not as meaningful as the dps gain from focusing on the boss. If you have AR/Lust/Hero up and energy isn't an issue, then sure cleave away, but otherwise you could be doing more damage to the boss, ending the fight sooner.

All of this, of course, is raid dependent. I happen to be blessed with a total beast of a boomkin (and other strong AoE types) so the adds die quickly and easily such that my cleave damage was basically just finishing off a couple of them a little earlier.

But yes, "Meter Padding" was the wrong term and I apologize for using it incorrectly. I just meant that the amount of damage you were preventing was generally less valuable than shortening the fight as a whole. YMMV as they say.

And I absolutely support cleaving the adds while dpsing the oozes when you get double adds. On the move like that rogue's are much better at "clean up" than basically any other option.

Edit: "more damage sooner" isn't a real thing...

Haelis · 03/09/12, 8:03 PM

In 4pT13, and assuming you get to use AR the same number of times either way in the course of the encounter, does the increased number of auto attacks that occurs when you stack AR with Bloodlust account for more or less damage than the extra number of Sinister Strikes and finishers you can perform if you use AR outside of Bloodlust? In the stacking scenario, I can see your number of white melee swings going through the roof, but it seems like you lose out on all that increased energy regen, since there's no way to avoid capping. I'd love to know which is the better way to play it.

Furtim · 03/10/12, 1:39 PM

Considering white swings and the poison and MG procs that come with it are still the biggest part of Combat's damage, it's pretty obvious to me that stacking them at the same time is like watching one of those Blendtec "Will it Blend?" videos, and that's not even counting if you are cleaving with BF.

After a certain point, Combat switches from being Energy driven to being more GCD driven, and as long as you are using the correct abilities at the correct times, energy capping is not a bad thing.

Rosvall · 03/13/12, 7:33 AM

Originally Posted by Furtim

Considering white swings and the poison and MG procs that come with it are still the biggest part of Combat's damage, it's pretty obvious to me that stacking them at the same time is like watching one of those Blendtec "Will it Blend?" videos, and that's not even counting if you are cleaving with BF.

After a certain point, Combat switches from being Energy driven to being more GCD driven, and as long as you are using the correct abilities at the correct times, energy capping is not a bad thing.

And if you're constantly capping anyways (Like Hero + Gunship trinket or AR), you can always use Kick for a potential poison proc for free.

jAsOs · 03/13/12, 1:35 PM

It is unfortunate that they removed FoK during KS, if not there's another way prevent energy capping while KS is up.

PikaPika1006 · 03/13/12, 2:19 PM

Originally Posted by Rosvall

And if you're constantly capping anyways (Like Hero + Gunship trinket or AR), you can always use Kick for a potential poison proc for free.

Most bosses are immune to kick, making the poison proc not possible.

Shadire · 03/13/12, 2:42 PM

Originally Posted by PikaPika1006

Most bosses are immune to kick, making the poison proc not possible.

Hasn't it been already discussed somewhere here that immune affects only interrupt/silence effect while poison can still be procced normally? I think I saw some testing on logs for that.

Twoboxer · 03/13/12, 2:59 PM

Originally Posted by Shadire

Hasn't it been already discussed somewhere here that immune affects only interrupt/silence effect while poison can still be procced normally? I think I saw some testing on logs for that.

One page back in this thread:

If target is kick immune, there is no poison proc.

piou · 03/14/12, 10:45 AM

Two very fast questions, but propably the cause for lots of debate;

1) KS with legendaries is DPS loss? I know they say waiting for red debuff vs using on CD is almost the same DPS, but is KS viable with legendariers (i mean final stage, oranges) and/or maybe switching MAINhand for KS is actually worth it?

2) I ve seen many top PvE rogues without glyph of TotT (using the sprint one mainly). Shouldn't TotT be used on cd, when your energy is like very low, cause of the 2/5 T13 bonus, actually making the glyph very good to have as combat???

Brotherbear · 03/14/12, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by piou

Two very fast questions, but propably the cause for lots of debate;

1) KS with legendaries is DPS loss? I know they say waiting for red debuff vs using on CD is almost the same DPS, but is KS viable with legendariers (i mean final stage, oranges) and/or maybe switching MAINhand for KS is actually worth it?

2) I ve seen many top PvE rogues without glyph of TotT (using the sprint one mainly). Shouldn't TotT be used on cd, when your energy is like very low, cause of the 2/5 T13 bonus, actually making the glyph very good to have as combat???

#1
The only caution I'd have about using KS with the legendary daggers would be that you should avoid using it if your agility stacks are high to avoid having the proc occur right as you hit KS. I'm assuming that swapping mainhands will reset your agility stacks, so it's probably a bad idea.

#2
Top PvE rogues are often specializing their specs for specific fights/issues their raids are encountering so it's difficult to make a blanket assumption based on their decisions unless you can ask them. I know it's very common to unglyph TotT for Spine to increase tendon dps, and I could see that being continued for other fights if the raid dps gain is large enough.

Honestly unglyphing Tricks as a combat rogue is an interesting decision though. On any fight where you aren't cleaving, energy isn't really an issue, especially with 2T13. I'll have to think about that one some more.

piou · 03/14/12, 12:11 PM

about #1 I'll try it out if stacks are being reset and get back to u!

about #2 My main question is that in general is TotT part of our normal combat rogue dps? Cause there are a lot of myths floating around aka "using tott on cd is only gimping yourself!"

Grimwolf · 03/14/12, 1:26 PM

Considering all the inconvenient times the proc has gone off for me, as Hagara cloaks, running around Hagara's platform during the ice phase, as adds die, as Goronia flys off, it's a seemingly endless list, I've only had the proc go off as I hit KS once. It's my thought that if you wait until after you proc the legendaries before hitting KS, you will miss out on typically 60 seconds being taken off of Killing Spree's cd. And even when the proc happens just as you hit KS, you still get 3 or 4 Eviscerates which helps some in bringing down the cd. Another thing to consider, if you use KS with high stacks of Agility, yes you run the risk of overlapping the proc, all that extra agility helps your KS hit hard. If you play it safe, your KS won't be worth as much.