Rogue Simple Questions Thread: Cataclysm Edition - Page 8

Sarvius · 12/20/10, 1:58 AM

He misspoke. He meant to say that you want to delay the use of envenom again while the buff is still up. It's optimal to ensure that the envenom buff is up when you mutilate because it can proc poisons from both hands. So only pool when you already have the 4+ cps.

evl · 12/20/10, 2:13 AM

Has anyone modeled the EP value of Rocket Barrage? It seems horribly low since it uses up a GCD while doing pathetic damage, even a normal Throw does more damage if one is out of range.

Also, has the details of fading combo points been fully explored? For how long and at what maximum range do you retain the fading points?

Acroanidd · 12/20/10, 3:37 AM

I dont know if this has been brought up. It might be pure speculation and just blatantly horrible luck.

Has any other combat rogues noticed any significant issues with their offhand durability due to Main Gauche proc'ing excessive offhand attacks, I'm fairly well geared half 333 half 346 right now, with mastery being one of the weakest stats ive been trying to get exp capped for the time being because im over spell hit and have thus reforged as much mastery as i can to exp. That being said I still have 10.4 points of mastery which at 2points a piece is ~22.1% chance to proc an offhand on a mainhand attack added to the 16% base.

What i've been noticing over a weekend of heavy dungeon running probly 10+ hours a day, my OH (Buzzerblade) would be yellow at 5/65 where as my MH (theif's blade) would be at ~50/95. And for that matter all of the rest of my gear would be at or around 50% dura while my OH is <10%.

Anyone able to test / confirm / provide any insight into this would be greatly appreciated, maybe if it is found to be the case we could see if blizz could do something about it.

thirus · 12/20/10, 7:13 AM

Two Questions about sub:

1. Aldriana, did you consider a more eviscerate focussed sub cycle with hemo as main cp builder and talent points 3 in ruthlessness, 3 in coup de grace and 2 in lethality + evi glyph, if yes how far was it behind?

2. How can we try to help you to get a more sophisticated model of sublety? Should we provide logs or do some mechanics testing?

genericrogue · 12/20/10, 9:34 AM

Originally Posted by Acroanidd

I dont know if this has been brought up. It might be pure speculation and just blatantly horrible luck.

Has any other combat rogues noticed any significant issues with their offhand durability due to Main Gauche proc'ing excessive offhand attacks, I'm fairly well geared half 333 half 346 right now, with mastery being one of the weakest stats ive been trying to get exp capped for the time being because im over spell hit and have thus reforged as much mastery as i can to exp. That being said I still have 10.4 points of mastery which at 2points a piece is ~22.1% chance to proc an offhand on a mainhand attack added to the 16% base.

What i've been noticing over a weekend of heavy dungeon running probly 10+ hours a day, my OH (Buzzerblade) would be yellow at 5/65 where as my MH (theif's blade) would be at ~50/95. And for that matter all of the rest of my gear would be at or around 50% dura while my OH is <10%.

Anyone able to test / confirm / provide any insight into this would be greatly appreciated, maybe if it is found to be the case we could see if blizz could do something about it.

I just wanted to chime in and say that I have absolutely observed this behaviour as well. MH Fist of Pained Senses (H), OH Buzzer Blade (H). It happens very often that my offhand goes red while my mainhand is at more than half dura. I am sporting 333 mastery rating.

• Aldriana · 12/20/10, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by thirus

Two Questions about sub:

1. Aldriana, did you consider a more eviscerate focussed sub cycle with hemo as main cp builder and talent points 3 in ruthlessness, 3 in coup de grace and 2 in lethality + evi glyph, if yes how far was it behind?

2. How can we try to help you to get a more sophisticated model of sublety? Should we provide logs or do some mechanics testing?

1) I've looked at it briefly but haven't had time to model it in detail. My sense is that it winds up being inferior, but I don't have any good estimates as to by how much.

2) The biggest thing limiting improvement of the subtlety model is simply my free time. Between work, the holidays, and getting geared up + raiding, I've had very little time to worry about improving any of the class models - and, subtlety being apparently weaker than the other trees, I confess that its not my first priority for spending time on. Eventually there are some questions that will need to be answered, such as: how many crits per second does a typical raid generate? How variable is the cycle? How flexible is the cycle? What's the effect of latency on squeezing moves into a Shadow Dance? And so forth. But all in all, even to the extent that I do have time to work on modeling, it seems to me that working on what appears to be the weakest tree, played by the fewest people, should not be my first priority.

squiffy · 12/20/10, 3:28 PM

Originally Posted by genericrogue

I just wanted to chime in and say that I have absolutely observed this behaviour as well. MH Fist of Pained Senses (H), OH Buzzer Blade (H). It happens very often that my offhand goes red while my mainhand is at more than half dura. I am sporting 333 mastery rating.

Thirded, MH is Cruel Barb, OH is Buzzer Blade, 88 mastery. Just need someone to chime in now with a different OH who is also seeing the increased durability loss.

Sarvius · 12/20/10, 3:32 PM

Originally Posted by Acroanidd

That being said I still have 10.4 points of mastery which at 2points a piece is ~22.1% chance to proc an offhand on a mainhand attack added to the 16% base.

Just wanted to mention that (unless it was phrased oddly) it seems you're misunderstanding how mastery is displayed. When you train mastery originally you gain 8 points in it which are displayed on your character sheet and are not subject to any changes. So your 10.4 mastery is in fact 2.4 mastery from gear, bringing you a total of 22.1% chance to proc - not 22.1% plus another 16. All masteries grant 8 points when originally trained which is what the base is calculated off of; 2% per point makes subt and combat a 16% base and 3.5% per makes assass a 28% base.

Vlos · 12/20/10, 4:07 PM

Originally Posted by squiffy

Thirded, MH is Cruel Barb, OH is Buzzer Blade, 88 mastery. Just need someone to chime in now with a different OH who is also seeing the increased durability loss.

I can confirm that I was getting the increased dura loss with both Throat Slasher and Quicksilver Blade, while mainhanding Calder's Coated Carrion Carver and Thief's Blade respectively.

Schmoopy · 12/20/10, 4:40 PM

Maybe I'm ignorant of how durability losses are incurred, but wouldn't it makes since that regardless of MG the offhand would lose durabilty quicker simple because it has a lower swing timer (ie faster weapon speed). Thus it hits more often and as a result loses more durability.

I play assassination and I have noticed while lvling that my offhand is often yellow before my mainhand and had always chalked it up to the difference in weapon speed. So I would assume this is exacerbated as a combat rogue due to MG, though I'm not sure why this is surpising/bothering so many. If its a real issue get a traveler's mammoth or make friends with an engineer with jeeves.

Wowslayer · 12/20/10, 5:14 PM

You are more than likely correct Schmoopy. Also keep in mind that the difference between MH and OH durability is going to be even greater than that of Assassination because Combat uses and even slower MH, and Mutilate somewhat evens the durability because it attacks with both weapons. So for all you Combat rogues out there, sorry to say chalk it up to "working as intended" and carry around some extra repair money and a pocket repairer.

Klaent · 12/20/10, 8:08 PM

So as combat, using rupture in your cycle increases dps by ~1%. This is with Mangle/Blood Frenzy right? So without the bleed buff should rupture be removed from rotation?
And what about switching SND glyph for Evis Glyph? You could also move one point from Ruthlessness to Coup de Grace, 7% increased dmg for evis might be worth it if your only using SnD and Evis as your finishers.

• Aldriana · 12/20/10, 9:04 PM

The spec and glyphs are the ones that have shown to be superior in ShadowCraft. Eviscerate Glyph and Coup De Grace are both clearly inferior to the posted setup(s).

Re: Mangle. Yes, it appears that you should drop rupture from your cycle if you don't have the bleed debuff.

Damiz · 12/20/10, 10:29 PM

I have had horrible luck getting a 346 weapon to drop for combat so far, but the other night I picked up [Cookie's Tenderizer]. Obviously replacing agility with strength sucks, but I am wondering; how would the 2.80 speed strength weapon would compare to a 2.60 agility weapon?

Cissalie · 12/20/10, 11:45 PM

Regarding Slice and Dice being the best third glyph, is that for tank and spank style bosses or in general? Would its value go down on target switching fights where the extra 6 seconds might go to waste regularly?