Combat Guide for Cata [12/01/2011] - Page 11

• Aldriana · 01/14/11, 12:46 PM

The main thing holding up numbers is the fact that the computer where I've been doing my scratchwork is broken right now, and I haven't had time to set up on one of my other computers. However, in terms of ballpark figures: If MG no longer procs CP, the changes probably aren't even a net buff. Assuming that gets fixed: Mastery might pass white hit, but almost certainly won't pass yellow spell hit, much less haste.

Ronson · 01/14/11, 1:50 PM

If MG does turn out to be 100% of MH damage with a chance to trigger CP, wouldn't that make it basically the old sword spec buff yet on a proc rate we can increase? Depending on how much we can mastery that into proccing, it seems like it could do a lot. Although, to be honest, Combat as a whole feels different to me now and I have shyed away from it post-4.0, so I might just be seeing what isn't there.

Jestyr991 · 01/14/11, 1:57 PM

Well mastery could never pass yellow hit, simply because the mastery its self is considered one to the best of my knowledge. Aside from that even the patch notes as of 1/12/11 say "Main Gauche (Mastery) now provides a chance to deal an attack for 100% of main-hand damage. This attack can trigger Combat Potency." It is likely a technical limitation on their side that they need to correct, and therefore a bug.

At low gear levels haste will still likely be king, but I could personally see that changing at higher gear levels when we can passively reach our "haste:energy regen" cap.

Ontop of that it seems to be as per the old WindFury Weapon and Totem. It has no ICD that I have found in 20min of auto attacks, and I have seen it proc in quick succession so it may be procing its self. The only difference is its supposed to give energy (or a chance rather) instead of a large stack of attack power.

Dracen · 01/14/11, 2:40 PM

I'm fairly sure Aldriana meant to say that mastery wouldn't pass spell hit (not yellow hit, which no secondary stat is likely to ever pass). However, even if it doesn't pass haste/spell hit (and therefore doesn't affect reforging strategy) it may affect gearing by making items with mastery significantly more attractive. For instance, the epic bracers (Parasitic Bands) are currently potentially worse than a blue (Poison Fang Bracers (H)) due to their wholly horrible crit/mastery stats. But, with a mastery buff, that would no longer be the case. If nothing else, having only one completely fail stat (crit) will be a nice change.

One other note I haven't seen discussed yet, the change to mastery seems like it might increase our poison damage as well as the physical damage. Before the change, each MG had a 30% chance to proc DP which a) refreshed the stack, and b) caused an IP hit. Now, each MG will be an MH hit and thus have a chance to proc IP. Assuming a 2.6 speed MH and that the proc rate is based on that speed for instant attacks (and not the base 20%), I believe the proc rate of IP is 37.14% so there's actually an increased chance to apply IP with the new mechanics.

There would also be, of course, an increased chance of your DP stack falling off due to not being refreshed by the MG hits. However, combat rogues hit with their OH fairly frequent, say once per second, so with DP lasting 12s, the chance of DP dropping (without MG) is only (0.7)^12 or approximately 1.4%, which isn't a huge risk and will become even smaller as haste levels increase.

O_t · 01/14/11, 8:36 PM

Assuming that MG will be fixed to proc Combat Potency:
Fast MH will get interesting because MG damage(2.4/1.8 normalized) & Combat Potency procs will increase while only reducing SS/RvS damage.
It will require some fairly high mastery and or ap values and a non-dagger fast one hand weapon but we are still at the early stages of cata so we might reach those requirements.

• Aldriana · 01/14/11, 8:53 PM

I doubt it. Prior to the 4.0.6 changes, as near as I can tell, the only time a fast MH would catch up with a slow one is if you posited the existence of a fast non-dagger weapon - a sword, mace, axe, fist, whatever. If you were using such a weapon in the OH, a fast MH became viable (as in: not quite as good as a slow one, but competitive enough to be an option if you didn't have a slow one). Fast/fast sort of worked, but even dagger/fast was untenable, and dagger/dagger was just awful.

With the 4.0.6 change, we make the OH weapon type irrelevant - a dagger is as good as anything - but it means that using a fast MH not only reduces your SS and RvS damage, it also reduces your Main Gauche damage. Hence, a fast/dagger/both MH costs you even more damage than before - and since a dagger MH wasn't even close to worth using before, its still not now. So unless they come up with a fast nondagger MH to use - which, in light of the MG change, I *severely* doubt - slow/fast is going to remain optimal for the foreseeable future.

The astute observer of this analysis might note that the main problem is the loss of SS damage, and ponder if it makes any sense whatsoever to replace SS in order to fix this problem - for instance, could it make sense to use Backstab instead, thereby gaining all the benefits of a fast MH without the crushing shortcomings of having to SS with a fast weapon normalized to dagger speeds. Sadly, the answer is no - I think the multipliers on SS between Aggression and Imp SS have gotten to the point where it'd be unlikely to be worth it anyway, but what really sinks it is Bandit's Guile. No SS, no Bandit's Guile. No Bandit's Guile, 20% less damage. So no, replacing SS as your CP builder doesn't work either.

Katria · 01/15/11, 5:38 AM

On combat rotation and SnD, is it possible that it would be a DPS gain to use 1cp SnD at all times?

My reasoning is this: at 5cp, it lasts 41 seconds, and 23 seconds at 1cp. So 7 casts in 5 minutes at 5cp, and 13 casts at 1 cp in the same timeframe.

5cp = 0 energy used (refunded by relentless strikes), 35cp used.

1cp = 260 energy used (20/cast since 1 in 5 refunded by relentless strikes). 13 cp used, 6.5 SS lost, that's another 7.8cp (due to SS glyph). So about 21 cp used total, effectively, in addition to the damage lost from the SS.

But, that's 14cp used for evis/rupture, 28 seconds off killing spree and AR. And at this point the math gets complicated. Basically balancing the damage done by 14cp worth of evis/rupture plus the added damage from more frequent uses of AR and KS, vs. the damage from 6.5 SS.

Is it possible that sticking to 1 or 2 (if your SS glyph procs) cp SnD will result in more DPS in the long run? It's always made sense to use as long a SnD as possible in the past, but now there is an added opportunity cost from using combo points for SnD, since not only do they power damaging finishers but they also reduce the cooldown on our most powerful abilities, and we don't get that benefit when CPs are used for SnD.

mulvad · 01/15/11, 9:54 AM

In the absense of "official" numbers from Aldriana, I modelled the changes currently on the PTR:

Main Gauche (Mastery) now provides a chance to deal an attack for 100% of main-hand damage. This attack can trigger Combat Potency.
Revealing Strike now increases finisher effectiveness by 35% (45% glyphed), up from 20% (30% glyphed).
Vitality now increases attack power by 25%, up from 20%.

In my model Main Gauche attacks proc's Combat Potency like it is described in the patch notes. I assumed the observations of Main Gauche not proc'ing Combat Potency on PTR is the result of a bug which will eventually be fixed.

These are the new EP values I get in heroic t11 gear

Stat	EP
Agility	2.69
Yellow Hit Rating	1.93
Expertise Rating	1.65
Haste Rating	1.52
Spell Hit Rating	1.37
Mastery Rating	1.19
White Hit Rating	1.09
Crit Rating	0.92

Observations:

I saw an overall DPS increase of ~8.82% from 23639 to 25724.
As can be seen mastery has gotten quite a boost and is no longer our weakest stat. It does however still not pass spell hit.
The optimal rotation is still finisher at 5cp, keep rupture up, use RvS at 4cp only
The DPS penalty for dropping RvS from the rotation is higher now, at around 400 dps
Coup de Grace has become stronger with the boost to RvS, but is still the weakest of the four non-combat dps talents so the spec remains unchanged
Prime glyphs is still SS, AR and SnD. Rupture is around 50 dps weaker than SnD and Revealing Strike is around 110 dps weaker.

These numbers should be taken with a grain of salt, as it was my first time working with shadowcraft I might have made a few mistakes. I'm curious to see how my numbers compare to Aldriana's once he gets his computer fixed

Strykk · 01/16/11, 9:51 PM

Originally Posted by mulvad

Observations:

I saw an overall DPS increase of ~8.82% from 23639 to 25724.
As can be seen mastery has gotten quite a boost and is no longer our weakest stat. It does however still not pass spell hit.
The optimal rotation is still finisher at 5cp, keep rupture up, use RvS at 4cp only
The DPS penalty for dropping RvS from the rotation is higher now, at around 400 dps
Coup de Grace has become stronger with the boost to RvS, but is still the weakest of the four non-combat dps talents so the spec remains unchanged
Prime glyphs is still SS, AR and SnD. Rupture is around 50 dps weaker than SnD and Revealing Strike is around 110 dps weaker.

These numbers should be taken with a grain of salt, as it was my first time working with shadowcraft I might have made a few mistakes. I'm curious to see how my numbers compare to Aldriana's once he gets his computer fixed

Is there a reason why RvS at 4cp only is optimal? I see some simulators (IE. manoutoftime.org) use this priority also. With the sinister strike glyph possibly granting an extra combo point off sinister strike, you will sometimes skip the 4th combo point. What happens when you sinister strike from 3 in to 5 cp's? It seems like a waste to use RvS then. I've been using RvS as my 2nd or 3rd combo point. This seems to work a lot better with the SS glyph. Am I missing something?

Sylvira · 01/16/11, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by Strykk

Is there a reason why RvS at 4cp only is optimal? I see some simulators (IE. manoutoftime.org) use this priority also. With the sinister strike glyph possibly granting an extra combo point off sinister strike, you will sometimes skip the 4th combo point. What happens when you sinister strike from 3 in to 5 cp's? It seems like a waste to use RvS then. I've been using RvS as my 2nd or 3rd combo point. This seems to work a lot better with the SS glyph. Am I missing something?

I believe it is because SS Damage+ Extra CP chance is greater then RVS damage + increased finisher damage. However at 4 cp the extra cp from SS is wasted and RVS + finisher damage is better dps. So going from 3-5 cp and not getting an rvs is still better then using rvs at lower cp.

Sulphuric · 01/17/11, 3:20 AM

Originally Posted by Strykk

Is there a reason why RvS at 4cp only is optimal? I see some simulators (IE. manoutoftime.org) use this priority also. With the sinister strike glyph possibly granting an extra combo point off sinister strike, you will sometimes skip the 4th combo point. What happens when you sinister strike from 3 in to 5 cp's? It seems like a waste to use RvS then. I've been using RvS as my 2nd or 3rd combo point. This seems to work a lot better with the SS glyph. Am I missing something?

What you missunderstood with the discription is that you either a) use RvS at 4 cp, or b) don't use at all, due to SS pushing you from 3-5 cp.

Naruumn · 01/17/11, 11:02 PM

Using RvS
RvS should only be used when you have 4 combo points and are about to do a Rupture or Evis (it has no effect on SnD). Currently, it is estimated that you will only suffer a 100 DPS loss for not using RvS at all.

<Aldriana, post #66 in this thread>

That's the sort of subtle interaction that I haven't had a chance to model yet. Briefly stated: in order to get useful information out as quickly as possible, I built models for all 3 specs with fairly simplified cycle assumptions, so as to be able to quickly make general comparisons about which spec is strongest, which stats you should be going for, and so on - the general sorts of information that people most urgently need to know at the start of an expansion. However, what this doesn't include is assessments of value for subtle interactions like timing which moves you're doing against Bandit's Guile, Garroting out of vanish for Assassination, and so forth. I fully intend to work out these details at some point, but I don't think we have a definitive answer for them yet.

I have considered using RvS at 4 combo points with SnD, in order to raise the chance that the following finisher is affected by the +20% damage bonus. I do not expect the difference to be large, since it only affects one finisher per 5-pt SnD, and it raises the chance of applying the 20% damage bonus from 83.36% to 97.23%, for an expected gain of a little under 3% of the unbuffed damage for that finisher. Has this been modeled and rejected, or is this one of the things that has not been looked at yet?

Danagat · 01/18/11, 6:24 AM

Is there a reason why RvS at 4cp only is optimal? I see some simulators (IE. manoutoftime.org) use this priority also. With the sinister strike glyph possibly granting an extra combo point off sinister strike, you will sometimes skip the 4th combo point. What happens when you sinister strike from 3 in to 5 cp's? It seems like a waste to use RvS then. I've been using RvS as my 2nd or 3rd combo point. This seems to work a lot better with the SS glyph. Am I missing something?

using RvS as your 2nd/3rd CP means that you will use SS when you are at 4 CP. Using a SS at 4 CP means to waste the chance of proccing a 2nd CP via glyph. Using RvS at 4CP / skipping it when you SS from 3-5 is the only way not to waste glyph proccs.

Sarvius · 01/18/11, 7:53 AM

Originally Posted by Naruumn

I have considered using RvS at 4 combo points with SnD, in order to raise the chance that the following finisher is affected by the +20% damage bonus. I do not expect the difference to be large, since it only affects one finisher per 5-pt SnD, and it raises the chance of applying the 20% damage bonus from 83.36% to 97.23%, for an expected gain of a little under 3% of the unbuffed damage for that finisher. Has this been modeled and rejected, or is this one of the things that has not been looked at yet?

Just bear in mind that the only drawback of this method is that RvS simply hits for less than SS. By rather a lot. It also doesn't benefit from lethality. All of these are rather minor things to consider, but it means that if for some reason your RvS debuff falls off before your next finisher you've lost damage that you're not getting back.

Despite that, it would be my guess that in most situations this method would be superior. The likelihood of not using another finisher within 15s is, with current regen, pretty low. And if you do happen to land at 4 cps during the next cycle as well, your chances of wasting a cp proc on an ss are the same as if you had just ss'd the 5th point for your snd. Complete wash.

• Aldriana · 01/18/11, 12:00 PM

RvSing on 4 before a SnD is one of those things that there's no reason not to do, provided you remember to *not* RvS on 4 if it happens again before you do a damaging finisher. There's no real downside to it, provided you only do it once.

However, if you RvS twice - once before the SnD and again before the actual finisher - that's a DPS loss. So be careful.