Combat Guide for Cata [12/01/2011] - Page 12

chipix · 01/19/11, 11:36 AM

Due to latency and current game mechanics it is probable that a combat rogue can esily cap energy in the following different scenarios:

AR
KSP in mid energy
Bloodlust + Hurricane procs

Also, makes us spam our special attacks very fast with very little thinking since energy caping is always very near.

a) Is it viable to reforge until spell hit instead of haste in order to reduce the above risks and difficulties in play, since energy cap is more energy loss? How much theoretical loss of dps will be?
b) Does the above makes it even less favorable specing combat instead of assassination?

Syncness · 01/19/11, 9:15 PM

Originally Posted by chipix

Due to latency and current game mechanics it is probable that a combat rogue can esily cap energy in the following different scenarios:

AR
KSP in mid energy
Bloodlust + Hurricane procs

Also, makes us spam our special attacks very fast with very little thinking since energy caping is always very near.

a) Is it viable to reforge until spell hit instead of haste in order to reduce the above risks and difficulties in play, since energy cap is more energy loss? How much theoretical loss of dps will be?
b) Does the above makes it even less favorable specing combat instead of assassination?

AFAIK, you will only energy cap from AR, you should not be Killing Spree-ing mid energy, and Bloodlust+Hurricane doesn't affect energy recovery?

a) I don't see how reforging spell hit into haste is going to help you with "not energy capping".
b) Ald already pointed out that at this point in time, Assassination = Combat 35%+, Assassination > Combat below 35% [boss HP].

[e] CP procs, right. Regardless, reforging into haste won't help.

Zerlu · 01/19/11, 9:29 PM

Originally Posted by Syncness

AFAIK, you will only energy cap from AR, you should not be Killing Spree-ing mid energy, and Bloodlust+Hurricane doesn't affect energy recovery?

a) I don't see how reforging spell hit into haste is going to help you with "not energy capping".
b) Ald already pointed out that at this point in time, Assassination = Combat 35%+, Assassination > Combat below 35% [boss HP].

BL+Hurricane affects combat potency procs, occasionally I've found myself capping due to this.

edit: spelling

JesusC · 01/20/11, 1:18 AM

Regarding PTRs: it seems that our assumptions were correct and that MG not proccing CP was just not implemented yet. It is as of now. Just had a swordwielding discussion with a training dummy on the PTRs and CP is proccing from MG now. The BF-changes are implemented now, too. (Does anyone get the feeling that those BF-changes might not make it to the live realms?)

Durrwad · 01/20/11, 1:58 AM

Originally Posted by JesusC

Regarding PTRs: it seems that our assumptions were correct and that MG not proccing CP was just not implemented yet. It is as of now. Just had a swordwielding discussion with a training dummy on the PTRs and CP is proccing from MG now. The BF-changes are implemented now, too. (Does anyone get the feeling that those BF-changes might not make it to the live realms?)

The BF changes would make Combat Rogues a lot more viable and certainly very useful on certain heroic fights, namely Halfus and other fights possibly. I would probably spec combat for those fights as I am currently mutilate but with the upcoming changes to combat I find it to be becoming an attractive spec again and was thinking of maybe switching.

skari · 01/20/11, 8:57 AM

I tested combat on halfus already and the "imbaness" is maybe not that massive than we are thinking at the moment. If you dps down halfus and using BF to do dmg on other drakes you have two major problems:
- your position must always be between halfus and a drake who will be killed (in many tactics you do not kill all drakes)
- you have a very large amount of tps on the drakes and you will get very fast aggro on them because the tank has no dmg increase buff (like the halfus tank) and has maybe also to tank another drake

if you can handle it, combat might be a very good alternative for this special fight.

But i see there more problems on the pvp site of the game, using BF and our good defensive cooldowns mabye end in some "nerf threads" so maybe it will not go live this way.

Gorathra · 01/20/11, 9:43 AM

I have a quick question on BF, how does the attack on the additional nearby opponent get accounted for? Does it share the same hit as the main target or does it count as an additional hit (hence additional chance for MG proc)?

Sleepyhead · 01/20/11, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Gorathra

I have a quick question on BF, how does the attack on the additional nearby opponent get accounted for? Does it share the same hit as the main target or does it count as an additional hit (hence additional chance for MG proc)?

As far back as I can remember, BF hits could not procc anything, I doubt this has changed.

Bane|Elune · 01/20/11, 10:48 AM

One thing I find in Heroics when I pop all my cooldowns, is that energy capping is less of a problem because of Blade Flurry's energy penalty.

So with that in mind with the new Blade Flurry toggle, would it be more effective DPS to pop Blade Flurry while you pop AR/Haste/Herbalism buff etc in order to keep from wasting energy, or would it ultimately become the same because you're capped by the GCD?

Feist-Mok · 01/20/11, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Bane|Elune

One thing I find in Heroics when I pop all my cooldowns, is that energy capping is less of a problem because of Blade Flurry's energy penalty.

So with that in mind with the new Blade Flurry toggle, would it be more effective DPS to pop Blade Flurry while you pop AR/Haste/Herbalism buff etc in order to keep from wasting energy, or would it ultimately become the same because you're capped by the GCD?

If there's a second target around, sure it would be. It's also be more effective DPS to pop it without cooldowns up. Anytime you can hit a second target, it's worth hitting Blade Flurry.

If you're asking about on single targets... no. Just... No.

Bane|Elune · 01/20/11, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Feist-Mok

If there's a second target around, sure it would be. It's also be more effective DPS to pop it without cooldowns up. Anytime you can hit a second target, it's worth hitting Blade Flurry.

If you're asking about on single targets... no. Just... No.

Well my question was more without a second target. Let's say it's Magmaw's vulnerable phase.. does it do any better to scale your energy regen back a bit by turning on BF while you have everything else popped that would normally cap your energy?

Moderas · 01/20/11, 11:08 AM

I do not see how using BF on a single target could ever be a good thing. Even if you are worried about capping the DPS loss of capping is no different than the DPS loss of never having that energy at all. If you cap and waste 20 or 30 energy during the vulnerable phase that is still better than losing the 90 energy from the BF reduction. (I think my math was right there, assumed 30 energy per sec because of AR with a 20% reduction penalty = 6 energy per second lost for 15 seconds.)

Brotherbear · 01/20/11, 11:20 AM

I think the confusion here is that you're viewing energy capping as a dpsloss, and the logical error you're making is that you're thinking that anything that would stop you from capping would be a gain. Which isn't true.

Energy capping is a dps loss because it means you aren't doing something *with* that energy. If you're using *every single gcd* on a damage dealing ability, then energy capping isn't a true dps loss, since there isn't anyway you could be spending that energy to do more damage. In that case you've either got a gearing issue, or the class needs a look from the developers. However at this point we only really run the risk of energy capping during AR. If that changes you can expect the ep value of haste to drop off after hitting the "haste cap". The "haste cap" doesn't currently exist by the way, at least not in any practical sense that I'm aware of.

So no, using blade flurry solely to reduce your energy regen would be akin to not spec'ing into combat potency. It's just a bad call unless doing so nets you some sort of additional damage source.

Veritech · 01/20/11, 1:47 PM

Hello all I have been following this thread very closely as I am raiding as combat on the live servers for the past few weeks. I am looking forward to the changes coming but I have an issue that I need help clearing up.

Rupture-

I have done a lot of testing and I'm having issues finding why I should use rupture at all. Ive noticed that my dps actually drops when I use rupture and it seems that my 5cp eviserate does more damage than a 5pt rupture. Is there something I am missing with this? I find that dpsing is much easier if I just remove rupture from my rotation and keep it as SnD,rvs at 4cp, evis ...lather rinse repeat.

The other issue I am having is Kspree. There certain fights that Kspree seems really bad for. This is especially true for fights that require you stay at a certain range between other players or if you need to stack in a certain area. Any tips would be appreciated.

I am currently pulling 14-15k dps in my current gear setup. I am yellow/spell hit capped, expertise capped and the rest I have reforged into haste. If anyone here is extremely bored look up my build and see if there is something I am missing

Thank you all

Nevis · 01/20/11, 2:26 PM

Rupture is barely an increase in DPS (~ 1%) with the bleed debuff (mangle, etc.) present. There are definitely encounters where the complexity of the fight might favor just spamming eviscerate.