Combat Guide for Cata [12/01/2011] - Page 22

Tsarin · 02/17/11, 4:43 PM

Looking over Rice's log of the Halfus kill I noticed a slightly odd effect. It appears that Blade Flurry can proc a Main Gauche created by a Main Gauche. This means at extremely high levels of mastery it may result in a huge burst of damage.

[19:39:57.194] Rice Blade Flurry Time Warden 19139
[19:39:57.194] Rice Blade Flurry Time Warden 18070
[19:39:57.194] Rice Main Gauche Halfus Wyrmbreaker 8832
[19:39:57.194] Rice Blade Flurry Time Warden 33932
[19:39:57.194] Rice Main Gauche Halfus Wyrmbreaker 8771

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

ZxBlasphemy · 02/17/11, 6:18 PM

I'm trying to clarify why a fast OH is preferable to a slow one. The deadly poison has a 30% chance to proc, so the more attacks you make the more poison applications you'll get (after 5 stacks triggering the mainhand poison). Looking at combat logs though, a majority of damage comes from melee and sinister strike, with eviscerate a little lower than the previous two but still pretty significant. Even the mastery skill Main Gauche is triggered from the mainhand, so a slower (and by slower we're only talking about a difference from 1.4 to 1.8 speed) isn't detrimental to that.
Along with more deadly poison, Combat Potency gives a 20% chance to generate 15 energy with a successful offhand attack, which is essentially 3 energy per offhand attack. Based on my calculations, every 3 energy generated by a 1.8 speed offhand weapon would translate to 3.86 energy generated by a 1.4 speed offhand weapon (in total numbers throughout an entire fight, that would be the ratio).
So the consensus is that this little bit of extra energy, plus the slightly increased poison applications would outweigh the extra damage done by a slower weapon.

My main question here, however is this - in the event that a rogue is stuck with a 346iLvl 1.4 speed dagger in the offhand, but has a 359iLvl 1.8 speed dagger (Organic Lifeform Inverter) in their inventory, would the 346 end up being better than the 359?

To get a little more specific, what if the iLvl359 1.8speed was enchanted with landslide and the iLvl346 1.4 speed only had hurricane on it. (Many people are obviously unwilling to put landslide on a non-epic item). Would that tilt the scales perhaps?

Boexl · 02/17/11, 6:48 PM

Originally Posted by Stony

On the other hand, looking through my logs around 3-4 weeks ago, when I used Hurricane/Landslide, landslide only had an uptime of around 15-30% if used only on the offhand.

So the big question we need to figure out is that, when a Hurricane spell proc occurs, what is the chance it will generate a new stack, as opposed to refreshing a melee stack.

Also note that a Landslide offhand enchant is much better than Hurricane enchant if you want to multi spec Mutilate or Subtlety for different Hardmode bosses.

I only recently became primarily combat(as of 4.0.6) so I am using landslide in my off and hurricane in my mainhand. Looking through my WoL also shows between 20% and 30% up time on Landslide with just the offhand. I may be misinterpreting your big question about the hurricane procs, but I have noticed having two different hurricane buffs up at once with just having it on my mainhand. I assume that this indicates that the procs from melee and spells also give separate buffs instead of overwriting each other.

Pyriana · 02/17/11, 7:04 PM

Originally Posted by Boexl

I only recently became primarily combat(as of 4.0.6) so I am using landslide in my off and hurricane in my mainhand. Looking through my WoL also shows between 20% and 30% up time on Landslide with just the offhand. I may be misinterpreting your big question about the hurricane procs, but I have noticed having two different hurricane buffs up at once with just having it on my mainhand. I assume that this indicates that the procs from melee and spells also give separate buffs instead of overwriting each other.

From the Cataclysm Mechanics Testing thread in this very forum:

34. On physical attacks, Hurricane acts like a regular 1 PPM enchant. On spells, it is a 45 second ICD and a 15% proc rate. If a spell proc occurs while a melee proc is active, it will refresh the melee proc. If a spell proc occurs with no melee proc, it will create a separate stack of the buff, potentially resulting in 3 stacks being up at the same time.

Jestyr991 · 02/17/11, 8:04 PM

Originally Posted by ZxBlasphemy

I'm trying to clarify why a fast OH is preferable to a slow one.

Allow me to shed some light on this for you.

These are my rogues EP values for both weapon speed and DPS values.

Notice the massive jump from 1.4 to 1.5 and the giant one from 1.4 to 1.8.

Just for sake of shooting a dead goat, with my gear these are the following ep values i get for the following items (using regular mode versions):

[Throat Slasher]: (409.4*1.6)+0.00 = 655.04EP
[Scaleslicer]: (462.2*1.6)+0.00 = 739.52EP
[Organic Lifeform Inverter]: (462.4*1.6)-629.78 = 110.06EP

Notice the distinct difference? Before you ask, no the heroic mode version is not better then a blue 346.

Mursana90 · 02/17/11, 8:21 PM

How Precise are the EP-Values(for Combat and Mutilate) i get from Shadowcraft?

Should i use them for the Complete Reforger Tool?

Sarvius · 02/17/11, 8:35 PM

Originally Posted by ZxBlasphemy

So the consensus is that this little bit of extra energy, plus the slightly increased poison applications would outweigh the extra damage done by a slower weapon.

Your primary question is based on having a superior dps slower weapon (which is almost never viable) in your offhand, but you seem to have an incomplete or inaccurate understanding of the mechanics in play. Why would a slow offhand do more damage? After the main gauche change there are precisely zero mechanics for combat rogues that factor weapon speed into their damage calculations. But they do all benefit from being faster - apart from white damage, which is entirely a wash. There's no tradeoff; faster is better in every instance where there's any difference at all.

You may say "it's only .86 more energy per offhand hit" but the more accurate assessment is that combat potency provides a significant amount of energy regen that takes a significant dive if you use a slower weapon. 28.5% more attacks per unit of time is 28.5% more benefit or instances than using a slower weapon. Ditto deadly. Just because they're not 30% of your overall dps doesn't mean the mechanics don't matter very much. Combat potency, mind you, also feeds into SS and rupture/evis damage so it's a factor in nearly all of your dps.

Edit: Because the line I quoted was before you elaborating on your specific situation, I assumed that you thought there was some benefit to a slower weapon. But it may just have been you jumping the gun and describing your scenario before you had gotten there (extra damage done by a slower weapon=346 to 359 jump). If that's the case then my little rant probably doesn't apply.

folderol · 02/18/11, 9:25 AM

I have spent some time with simulationcraft using the Rogue_Combat_T11_372 profile as reference to try and nail some of the subtilities of the combat cycle. I have a couple a interesting results based on this analysis :
- Using KSp during deep insight only seems to yield a lower DPS than using KSp as soon as possible
- I could not manage to create a cycle that did not hit the energy cap during the sim. The average result is to lose about 7% of the AR energy regen and spending about 2% of the combat energy capped

The first result is in contradiction with Shadowcraft but likely more accurate since Shadowcraft makes the assumption that KSp is always going to be used as soon as the deep insight starts whereas Simcraft accounts for other factors that may create additionnal delays like AR buff up, SnD about to fall off or simply having too much energy.

The second result can't be validated against Shadowcraft since the model only deals with average gains. It has no significant impact yet on glyph choices or stat priorities but shows that shadowcraft is probably overestimating the combat rogue overall DPS as well as the value of haste

Tryss · 02/18/11, 10:20 AM

I have a question about weapon speed in the MH. For Rogues, this really only applies to one weapon: Cruel Barb - Item - World of Warcraft which is 2.7 speed. Cookie's Tenderizer - Item - World of Warcraft is 2.8, but since it is strength-based I'm ignoring it.

Anyway, even though these are pre-raid items, how does one weigh weapon speed? I see the weight for weapon DPS. The Cruel Barb is slower than all other blue weapons, but some of those items have better stats (Ravening Slicer - Item - World of Warcraft for example has haste and mastery). I've been playing since Vanilla, and experience tells me that the slower weapon is better. Would that outweigh the poorer secondary stats? I suspect so, especially with the option to reforge.

Edit: To clarify, I was asking about weapons of the same iLevel. I'm aware a 2.6 speed epic will beat the 2.7 heroic blue. I also tried Shadowcraft before posting, but had difficulty ... I didn't see EP values for the actual weapon speed. I messed around with various heroic weapons in the MH and saw minor differences in the modeled DPS.

Sulphuric · 02/18/11, 1:03 PM

Originally Posted by Tryss

I have a question about weapon speed in the MH. For Rogues, this really only applies to one weapon: Cruel Barb - Item - World of Warcraft which is 2.7 speed. Cookie's Tenderizer - Item - World of Warcraft is 2.8, but since it is strength-based I'm ignoring it.

Anyway, even though these are pre-raid items, how does one weigh weapon speed? I see the weight for weapon DPS. The Cruel Barb is slower than all other blue weapons, but some of those items have better stats (Ravening Slicer - Item - World of Warcraft for example has haste and mastery). I've been playing since Vanilla, and experience tells me that the slower weapon is better. Would that outweigh the poorer secondary stats? I suspect so, especially with the option to reforge.

That's actually added into the shadowcraft calculation results. In heroic blues, the 2.7 speed weapon shows a ~60 EP increase, while in my current setup (mix of 359 and 372), it values a 2.7 speed weapon as a ~80 EP gain compared to the standard 2.6 weapons.

Just comapre the EP loss of using a 2.7 and the EP loss of not having the weapon with the optimal stat. Chances are high the 2.7 weapon will run ahead though.

Tryss · 02/18/11, 1:16 PM

Originally Posted by Sulphuric

That's actually added into the shadowcraft calculation results. In heroic blues, the 2.7 speed weapon shows a ~60 EP increase, while in my current setup (mix of 359 and 372), it values a 2.7 speed weapon as a ~80 EP gain compared to the standard 2.6 weapons.

Just comapre the EP loss of using a 2.7 and the EP loss of not having the weapon with the optimal stat. Chances are high the 2.7 weapon will run ahead though.

Ah, see my edit. I did look at SC before posting, but I was using the EP values in that popup on the first page, which does not list weapon speed EP. After your post I found the page you are referencing. Good to know that weapon speed is still significant, although that is unfortunately moot given current itemization.

Syncness · 02/20/11, 6:48 AM

This website could probably be used as a BiS guideline, also applies to Assassination (switch over to Assassination on the sidebar).

It's also very customizable for players with access to different levels of content.

Raconzor · 02/28/11, 8:56 AM

Syncness - I've looked at that website myself. One of the things I immediately notice on the page you're linking to is that none of the gear is reforged to haste. There are clearly some places where they could have done this, then reforged to expertise instead of hit elsewhere. Also in the stat weight editor they have spell hit set bizarrely low, yet are still reforging to hit in many places well past the 8% cap. I'd also question the purple gem in the shoulders.

If you're talking about using it for gear only ... that looks mostly right. I wasn't aware that Unheeded Warning was part of the BiS over fluid death, though.

Xeyon · 02/28/11, 9:23 AM

Raconzor, the unheeded warning doesnt actually beat the fluid death if you look at it on the item ranking list to the left of the item. There are a few items that arent actually the BiS according to the website yet are selected in the BiS gear set.

Tryss · 02/28/11, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Raconzor

Syncness - I've looked at that website myself. One of the things I immediately notice on the page you're linking to is that none of the gear is reforged to haste. There are clearly some places where they could have done this, then reforged to expertise instead of hit elsewhere. Also in the stat weight editor they have spell hit set bizarrely low, yet are still reforging to hit in many places well past the 8% cap. I'd also question the purple gem in the shoulders.

If you're talking about using it for gear only ... that looks mostly right. I wasn't aware that Unheeded Warning was part of the BiS over fluid death, though.

I'd suggest reading this post on their forums for why spell hit appears low (it is not): Hit Rating, Expertise, and Stat Weights Long story short, theorycrafters typically roll spell hit and physical hit into one number for ease of use, but the MR algorithm requires it to be separated into the physical and spell portions.

As for the purple gem on the shoulders, that combo is 1 EP higher than a 40 agi gem in the slot, with an agi weighting of 2.7 and the spell hit weighting of 1.4.

Not sure about the reforging. I know they have done multiple tweaks to the algorithm for that, and with my character (using Armory import) it has maximized haste while keeping me close to the expertise cap. It'd be better to ask the creators about an issue with the reforging. I do see a couple small changes that could be done that you alluded to.

I know they are still messing with the EP values for Unheeded Warning in 4.0.6. They said they based it on the weapon DPS weights. I think they just made that change this weekend and it's probably not correct for Rogues. I think the update was made with Feral Druids in mind, who have a weapon speed of 1.0.

Anyway, thought I'd respond. My guild leaders created the tool so I've been using it for a while. I've had no part in its creation. However, they are very responsive on the forums, with changes and suggestions being implemented in a short amount of time (many within a day or two). I encourage you to point these things out on their forums if you feel something should be changed.