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Old 12/22/10, 11:43 AM   #31
Pest
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Zuluhed (EU)
Maybe it's also worth noting in the Multi-Target section that using Eviscerate over Rupture is clearly superior while BF is up, since, unlike Rupture, Eviscerate hits both targets.

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Old 12/23/10, 11:39 AM   #32
Waitnbleed
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
Nazjatar
Is there any plan to add information about combat specific add-ons, I know there is a pretty good UI thread already but it is a bit broad as it doesn't relate specifically to combat. For example I use slice commander because its compact and fits nicely beneath my characters feet and allows an at a glance look at my energy and time remaining on SnD, it’s a functional add-on but out of date. I switched mains for Cataclysm so I am still getting up to speed with competitive rogue play and have not found ideal add-ons to date. Nice thread, thank you for the information and hard work.

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Old 12/23/10, 12:09 PM   #33
ieatpaperbag
Piston Honda
 
ieatpaperbag's Avatar
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Eonar
Originally Posted by pipus View Post
Thank you very much for the guide. I still have a question. Im sure it was mention but i dont seem to find it.

The priority stat wise fot gear should be Agi, hit(until cap) then what ?? Expertise or mastery ? I will reforge many item i just whant to know what is best. To hit more or be dodge less. And is there a cap to any of those 2 stats ? Thanks you all.
Pipus, you pretty much just follow the table, Agility is overwhelmingly your best stat. As for reforging, you should work on picking up hit to yellow hit cap (should be easy) and capping expertise. Any extra points you have after this should go into haste.

Originally Posted by Waitnbleed View Post
Is there any plan to add information about combat specific add-ons, I know there is a pretty good UI thread already but it is a bit broad as it doesn't relate specifically to combat. For example I use slice commander because its compact and fits nicely beneath my characters feet and allows an at a glance look at my energy and time remaining on SnD, it’s a functional add-on but out of date. I switched mains for Cataclysm so I am still getting up to speed with competitive rogue play and have not found ideal add-ons to date. Nice thread, thank you for the information and hard work.
Waitnbleed, I think originally I was going to just post add-ons that were spec specific but I think useful mods that fit that description are far and few in between. I will post a few add-ons that I find helpful (even if they belong on both guides) and take some suggestions (but not too many, I don't really want every rogue mod in existence posted and to keep the discussion focused on the playing, mechanics, and gearing of a rogue).

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Old 12/23/10, 3:58 PM   #34
themapples
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Azjol-Nerub (EU)
the only thoughts that i have are on Recuperate vs Reinforced Leather. The damage reduction is about the same, with one very significant difference, namely that Recuperate takes care of all types of damage.

However Reinforced Leather is a passive ability, Recuperate will take off from combo points that are used for DPS. So one the one hand you get an *overall* reduction is damge but with a DPS cost, whereas on the other you just cover your physical damage and maintain your DPS.

I do not know how this might change, if at all, at higher gear levels.
Perhaps its worth looking at the availability of non-physical damage reduction/avoidance offered by CoS and the pumped up Feint which cuts AOE by 50%. So with these in hand, perhaps Recuparate and Reinforced Leather might be a bit more even.

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Old 12/23/10, 4:36 PM   #35
fadedtimes
Von Kaiser
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Greymane
Originally Posted by themapples View Post
the only thoughts that i have are on Recuperate vs Reinforced Leather. The damage reduction is about the same, with one very significant difference, namely that Recuperate takes care of all types of damage.

However Reinforced Leather is a passive ability, Recuperate will take off from combo points that are used for DPS. So one the one hand you get an *overall* reduction is damge but with a DPS cost, whereas on the other you just cover your physical damage and maintain your DPS.

I do not know how this might change, if at all, at higher gear levels.
Perhaps its worth looking at the availability of non-physical damage reduction/avoidance offered by CoS and the pumped up Feint which cuts AOE by 50%. So with these in hand, perhaps Recuparate and Reinforced Leather might be a bit more even.
From a raiding perspective reinforced leather is very poor, because rogues do not take or should not take physical damage. I agree with this guides explanation.

Recuperate does cost the rogue dps when used, but at some points in raids it is better to be alive doing lower dps, than to be dead doing 0 dps. When I was speced combat I took improved recuperate and used it on certain raid encounters.

~
My concern is they know.

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Old 12/23/10, 4:46 PM   #36
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
I think the real point is that neither of them is that good. Recuperate is such a small heal with for such a large damage loss that its only rarely worth using; however, Reinforced Leather defends only against a type of damage that we really shouldn't be taking very often anyway, so isn't particularly useful either. And most of the rest of the tree isn't much better - the strongest PvE talent in the tree is probably Improved Sprint, about which GC once said:

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
Improved Sprint I will grant you doesn't have a lot of use in PvE.
Which is a pretty good reflection on just how useless the tree's filler is across the board. You can make a perfectly reasonable argument for almost any talent in the tree purely by virtue of the fact that *none* of them give meaningful advantages.

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Old 12/23/10, 5:37 PM   #37
Flaer02
Glass Joe
 
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Worgen Rogue
 
Perenolde
I don't think anyone is taking Imp. Recuperate for the heal, the benefit is all in the reduced damage taken while it's active. If there's big magic AoE coming you could significantly reduce your damage taken by using Feint and a 1CP Recuperate.

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Old 12/23/10, 6:11 PM   #38
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Sure. My point is that 6% isn't a large damage reduction, particularly on top of a feint. Assuming, say, a 50k AoE, you reduce it to 25k via feint and 2/2 Improved Recuperate thus gives you an extra 1500 damage reduction. If we further posit that you have about 120k HP raid buffed, the two ticks of Recuperate will also heal you for about 7200 HP, giving a total benefit of a bit under 9k healing/damage reduction.

Of course, two ticks of a Dense Embersilk Bandage will heal 80% as much, faster, for similar personal DPS loss, meaning that its a 2 point talent that makes Recuperate about as good as bandaging. You'll pardon me if I refrain from characterizing that as a good talent.

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Old 12/23/10, 6:43 PM   #39
Flaer02
Glass Joe
 
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Worgen Rogue
 
Perenolde
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
You'll pardon me if I refrain from characterizing that as a good talent.
I agree it's not stellar, I was arguing more for taking it over the other filler options which as you've pointed out are fairly bland/sub-par.

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Old 12/23/10, 7:34 PM   #40
themapples
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Azjol-Nerub (EU)
yes, bandage too, I found renewed use for

They are definately both fillers. Sprint too is usefull mostly defensively. I didnt used to be worried abt running before WotLK. But then, for Sindragosa for example, I found that if I was 2 seconds too late, in starting to run before the AOE hit, I had no chance making it out of the AOEs sphere.
The speed boost available in the Assasination spec might be a decisive point for some. Quickening (which also gives a 20% all-healing bonus) is passive too and comined with Sprint can be "forgiving", in situations where a yard too late can hit for 50k damage. Combined with Nightstalker it yields stealthed movement near as fast as the standard speed of other classes.
Also a small perhaps rare situational benefit, Nightstalker adds to the value of Overkill as well, as often, at the end of a multiple adds or random ground damage (spots, vortexes) phase where everyone is sometimes spread out, you would otherwise forgo to stealth back on the boss, as the time wasted by the slower stealth movement, would decrease dps (by increasing time).

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Old 12/23/10, 9:31 PM   #41
Blancomeow
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Malfurion
Macro Suggestion

I'm relatively new here and enjoy the cache of knowledge that seems to be on this board. I read your guide cover to cover and it was very informative.

Might I make one suggestion for your ToT macros. By adding the last line I have listed below your current target will change back to your previous target once ToT has been cast. I find this helpful when fighting during a multi-mob encounter as it saves me time clicking. Again just a suggestion and thanks for your hard work on the guide.

/target <insert name of target to be ToT>
/cast Tricks of the Trade
/targetlasttarget

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Old 12/24/10, 12:42 AM   #42
Killme888
Piston Honda
 
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Goblin Rogue
 
<FH>
Black Dragonflight
I think you're all underestimating how good imp recup is with the state of healing and mana of healers. For example on Nefarion, you can self sustain yourself through all the damage in both p1 & p3. It is so valuable to healers when they don't have to watch over you before every lightning machine.

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Old 12/24/10, 6:34 AM   #43
sp00n
Bald Bull
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Wrathbringer (EU)
@Blancomeow
Why would you manually click your target for TotT? Just use the [@playername] macro mentioned in the guide and you won't have to.

Or use the 'supermacro' (which is mentioned in the Assassination guide but not here?):
#showtooltip
/cast [@mouseover,help,nodead][@target,help,nodead][@focus,help,nodead][@targettarget,help,nodead]Tricks of the Trade

You could replace targettarget with playername or even insert it before there for added functionality.


@Killme888
We haven't done the fight on 25 man yet, but I assume Feint works there as well. On 10 man, you'll take only 50k from Lightning Machine when Feint is up, and as your health pool isn't really bigger in 25, the ability shouldn't hit any harder, so I don't really see the benefit of Imp Recup here. Taking off 10% of Nefarian should take long enough for the healers to top you up again before the next Lightning Machine hits.

Stopped Playing

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Old 12/24/10, 6:40 AM   #44
Istarian
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Lightninghoof
Originally Posted by Blancomeow View Post
I'm relatively new here and enjoy the cache of knowledge that seems to be on this board. I read your guide cover to cover and it was very informative.

Might I make one suggestion for your ToT macros. By adding the last line I have listed below your current target will change back to your previous target once ToT has been cast. I find this helpful when fighting during a multi-mob encounter as it saves me time clicking. Again just a suggestion and thanks for your hard work on the guide.

/target <insert name of target to be ToT>
/cast Tricks of the Trade
/targetlasttarget
A more elegant way of making this macro is to do

/cast [@<name>] Tricks of the Trade

This will cast tricks without changing your target at all.
For example, my G button is my multipurpose button that has five different tricks targets.

#showtooltip
/cast [mod:ctrl,nomod:alt] Noggenfogger Elixir; [mod:ctrl,mod:alt,@Ebbon] [mod:shift,@Seeani] [mod:alt,@Radagust] [nomod,@Ashkev,exists,nodead] [nomod,@Arcen,exists,nodead] [] Tricks of the Trade

Each of the three modifiers sends the spell to Ebbon, Seeani, or Radagust, our three tanks. If the button is pressed without modifiers in a raid where either Ashkev or Arcen exist (two melee dps), it will first send the spell to Ashkev if he is alive, then to Arcen if he is not. If the button is pressed outside of a raid (a heroic, for example) where neither Ashkev nor Arcen exist, it will cast the spell normally, to allow clicking or pressing, in my case, G then F (to assist to the tank), or an F2-5 key for a specific player in the group. Needless to say the first line for Noggenfogger is just my choice, but you may use the ctrl modifier for whatever else you may please (another tricks target if you like).

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Old 12/24/10, 1:46 PM   #45
priapus
Glass Joe
 
Troll Rogue
 
Rexxar
Do you think Quickening over Ruthlessness is a viable option? It would be nice to move fast in both specs (at least out of stealth.) How much of an increase is 2/3 Ruthlessness? I imagine it'd be better than dropping 3/3 Relentless Strikes to 1/3. It would also be nice not to have to use the boot chant, and Quickening is double the speed increase of the chant anyway, right? Obviously, this is a waste on a tank and spank but the fights that matter rarely are.

Also, is there a good addon for Bandit's Guile?

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