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Old 12/29/10, 8:43 PM   #61
Dimirus
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by coolcreep View Post
Haste is not like hit or expertise in that there is no set number at which it becomes less useful. If you're exp capped, then haste is the best stat for you to be reforging into, though agility is still far and away your best stat. The more haste the better, essentially.

I should note that it is hypothetically possible to get so much haste that you cannot spend your energy fast enough, at which point haste would be almost useless, but that point is impossible to reach at the moment, and most likely will be for a long, long time.
Thank you for the quick response. So essentially should i just be gemming agi/agi+haste?

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Old 12/29/10, 10:05 PM   #62
Sulphuric
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Rogue
 
Frostmane (EU)
Originally Posted by Dimirus View Post
Thank you for the quick response. So essentially should i just be gemming agi/agi+haste?
Well, generally you want to match any socket bonus that grants agility bonus. That means agi/hit into blue, agi/haste into yellow, and agi into red (just like the guide says). While the other socket bonuses, haste etc, you're better off ignoring the bonus and gemming straight agility. If it's two sockets whereas one of them is red and the bonus is either hit/haste/exp, then it's still beneficial to socket according to the bonus. And you will in all cases want to match the socket bonus for your helm.

This is just rough generalizing from my own experience though, if you want to make sure you're correct with every single occation, you're better off checking the EP values and calculating the situation out manually.

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Old 12/30/10, 12:19 PM   #63
MassMan
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Ravencrest (EU)
*Since [Enchant Weapon - Landslide] is currently quite expensive; a reasonable alternative is to use double [Enchant Weapon - Hurricane]. Since haste is a relatively strong stat for Combat compared to Assassination, [Enchant Weapon - Avalanche] is not competitive for Combat the way it is for Assassination.
Since this is the combat guide, may I suggest not bloating it with references to the other spec(s)? Especially when the two sentences seem if not contradicting, at least confusing

Edit: Nevermind, misread Avalance for Hurricane which led to my confusion. Still, if Avalance is crap for Combat, why mention it. And the comparisons to assassination still seem a bit out of place.

Last edited by MassMan : 12/30/10 at 12:42 PM.

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Old 12/30/10, 12:54 PM   #64
ieatpaperbag
Piston Honda
 
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Gnome Rogue
 
Eonar
Originally Posted by MassMan View Post
Edit: Nevermind, misread Avalance for Hurricane which led to my confusion. Still, if Avalance is crap for Combat, why mention it. And the comparisons to assassination still seem a bit out of place.
It's one of two references (I think comparison is a better word) to Assassination in the guide, I think since most raiding rogues have played both specs at some point in time it's a fair reference in both instances. I decided it would be better to mention that Avalanche was not competitive instead of not mentioning it all because rogues are asking how Hurricane and Avalanche match up to Landslide as a cheaper alternative. This should give rogues a complete answer about current weapon enchants and not with the question "what about the other new enchant, Avalanche?"

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Old 12/30/10, 10:08 PM   #65
Cissalie
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Saurfang
While I understand that as a general rule, RvS should not be used if SS procs you from 3 to 5 combo points, does that also hold true when using it on an Eviscerate when you have 3 stacks of BG up? An extra 20% effectiveness on a finisher that's already 30% stronger seems to be worth using, especially when you have enough time on your SnD and Rupture that you're more or less spamming Eviscerates during that phase of Bandit's Guile.

Unfortunately I don't know how to go about calculating the value of the stronger Eviscerate vs. the value of the energy used to add a RvS when you don't need the CP.

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Old 12/30/10, 10:46 PM   #66
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
That's the sort of subtle interaction that I haven't had a chance to model yet. Briefly stated: in order to get useful information out as quickly as possible, I built models for all 3 specs with fairly simplified cycle assumptions, so as to be able to quickly make general comparisons about which spec is strongest, which stats you should be going for, and so on - the general sorts of information that people most urgently need to know at the start of an expansion. However, what this doesn't include is assessments of value for subtle interactions like timing which moves you're doing against Bandit's Guile, Garroting out of vanish for Assassination, and so forth. I fully intend to work out these details at some point, but I don't think we have a definitive answer for them yet.

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Old 12/31/10, 10:55 PM   #67
Landerolin
Glass Joe
 
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Steamwheedle Cartel (EU)
Originally Posted by ieatpaperbag View Post
It's one of two references (I think comparison is a better word) to Assassination in the guide, I think since most raiding rogues have played both specs at some point in time it's a fair reference in both instances. I decided it would be better to mention that Avalanche was not competitive instead of not mentioning it all because rogues are asking how Hurricane and Avalanche match up to Landslide as a cheaper alternative. This should give rogues a complete answer about current weapon enchants and not with the question "what about the other new enchant, Avalanche?"
It's also useful given that we may well be using the same weapon for both specs. Having an offhand dagger with an enchant which was gimped for Combat could very soon turn out to be expensive. Obviously seperate weapons with specialised enchants is the gold-plated answer, but knowing that Hurricane > Avalanche when used for both raiding specs is very definately worthwhile.

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Old 01/04/11, 12:15 AM   #68
Istarian
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Lightninghoof
Bandit's Guile

Another BG idea that may be unmodeled right now but I'd like to put it on the table. I was considering the circumstance in which AR comes off cooldown while in a state of Deep Insight. There are two possible options, pop it right away to get extra abilities and haste within Deep Insight, or save it for when Deep Insight falls, so that you can use your extra SS / RvS to get you back into Deep Insight.

Also it's been modeled that Killing Spree is best saved for Deep Insight, but on certain fights it becomes quite difficult to use Killing Spree at this point. The best example of this is Nefarian. By the time Deep Insight has piled up, there are adds in the way that could potentially drag my KsP away from the boss. Is it advised to cross fingers and hope it doesn't hit adds, wait until adds are gone, or just pop KsP right at the start before adds even come into play? (I'm leaning towards the latter, seeing as the earlier it is done the more the cooldown has been chopped by RB)

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Old 01/04/11, 1:17 AM   #69
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
If you find you can reliably wait for BG to stack up and not get pulled off onto adds, you should. If you can't, you shouldn't. There's no general answer - it depends on your guild's placement, your ability to judge safe distances and timing, etc.

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Old 01/04/11, 1:01 PM   #70
Kuroiryu
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Emerald Dream
Haste Cap

It's been said before that haste cap is unobtainable at the moment but I'm starting to think I'll need to be reforging into hit instead of haste pretty soon. At 1686 haste, I'm feeling very GCD locked to the point I sometimes lose energy from Combot Potency procs if I spend a GCD on CoS or TotT. This likely only occurs during other haste procs from Hurricane and the like, but since non-DPS GCDs are an inevitable part of raiding, it might be worth it to consider the "haste cap" with a TotT GCD every 30 seconds and another non-energy GCD every so often for sprint, CoS and the like, taken into account.. We'd then want to subtract any haste gained from procs to get our real haste goal.

It may be that the theorycrafting works out to it still being unobtainable, but in practice, with boss movement and target downtime, it's feeling pretty tight already.

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Old 01/04/11, 1:56 PM   #71
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
It might feel like you're getting close to the cap, but you're really really not. At 1686 haste at current early raid gear levels, your baseline energy regen is probably around 17 a second, which means you're probably only looking at a move every 2 seconds on average. And given that the GCD is 1 second, this would imply a fair amount of cushion in the rotation yet.

I mean, lets be clear: Combat is very spammy, and it caps energy very quickly when you stop attacking. But that's fundamentally just the nature of the cycle - even with zero haste, you'd be up around 15-16 energy per second, and the fact that every single stat you have (save crit) boosts your regen directly or indirectly means that's only going to go up. Combat is just going to play that way, and there's just not that much we can do about it. If you don't care for that playstyle, that's totally understandable - as it happens I agree, which is among the reasons I'm running Assassination instead. But its not something you can really fix through itemization, either - the problem is in the fundamental design of the spec and the way it overloads energy regeneration as a damage-increasing mechanism, not with the way we're itemizing it. Its much spammier than any spec we've had to play before, and that's just something you have to get used to if you want to play combat.

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Old 01/05/11, 7:36 AM   #72
Sarvius
Don Flamenco
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Maiev
Originally Posted by Theownt View Post
Currently the best Meta is [Thundering Skyflare Diamond], which with a 480 Haste buff for 6 seconds on a presumed 45 second ICD, effectively equates to 64 Haste. This Meta gem is far and away the best choice for Combat, and beats any 54 Mastery Meta by about 3 EP for Mutilate.
It seems everyone is focusing on the primary benefit of the meta and not on the requirements. I have long assumed that, until CSD and RED are fixed, [Destructive Shadowspirit Diamond] would be the best option. If you already have a yellow and a blue in your gear naturally (which is by no means guaranteed or even remarkably common) then thundering may give it some competition - though there has been little testing and the numbers are dubious. Runspeed is really the only thing getting in the way (which makes this more relevant to assass) but I find that there are virtually no situations where a sub-1 minute cooldown sprint isn't more than suffucient for full time on target. And if you disagree and still want runspeed, get it on your boots at the cost of 10 agi and then collect an extra 40 by gemming full agi with this metagem anyways.

That's been my approach, thought I'd throw that out there.

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Old 01/05/11, 8:26 AM   #73
Sakuru
Von Kaiser
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
Speaking as an Combat and Assassinatio rogue rogue, the nubers of the 3 meta gems in discussion is what matters in terms of dps.

Combat:
The [Destructive Shadowspirit Diamond] gives: 54*0.95 = 51.3EP and some minor survivability gain.
The [Fleet Shadowspirit Diamond] gives: 54*0.9 = 48.6EP and minor run speed increase.
The [Thundering Skyflare Diamond], assuming an optimal up time (6sec /45 sec ICD) at ≈13% => (480*1.5)*0.13 = 93.6 EP.

The [Fleet Shadowspirit Diamond] might be slightly better based on the latest bluepost regarding a possible buff to Combat mastery.

The obvious choice will be, as they fix the requirement, and also staded in the guide, will be [Relentless Earthsiege Diamond].

Assassinaton

The [Destructive Shadowspirit Diamond] gives: 54*0.9 = 48.6EP and some minor survivability gain.
The [Fleet Shadowspirit Diamond] gives: 54*1.3 = 70.2EP and minor run speed increase. (You will not gain any additional runspeed when specced into Quickening as the talent does not stack).
The [Thundering Skyflare Diamond], assuming an optimal up time (6sec /45 sec ICD) at ≈13% => (480*1.2)*0.13 = 74.88 EP.

Also here the [Fleet Shadowspirit Diamond] will be the upper crust choice when they fix the requrements.

[Edit]

For the requirements, the Thundering is no problem meeting, I use pure agi in red, orange with agi mastery (assasination) / agi Haste (combat), and agi hit for the blue ones. As far as socets go, you should not have any problem obtaining gear with one of each socket to not vaste a socket bonus.

[Edit2]
Added the part about runspeed on the [Fleet Shadowspirit Diamond] for Assassination.

Last edited by Sakuru : 01/05/11 at 9:01 AM.

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Old 01/05/11, 8:53 AM   #74
Sarvius
Don Flamenco
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Maiev
My point was the meta gem requirements, not the spell reflect (which I thought was abundantly clear). You should only be activating socket bonuses that award agility and it's not necessarily guaranteed that you have a yellow and a blue socket in your gear that provide an agility socket bonus. Should you find yourself in that situation, socketing destructive will be superior to socketing a suboptimal gem or activating a suboptimal socket bonus in order to meet the requirements for a fleet or thundering.

The point is that RED and CSD are so good that we need to figure out how to socket to activate them. E.g. "have at least 1 blue gem in your gear to activate your meta." The rest of the meta gems are not. If you do not meet the requirements of fleet in otherwise ideal gems, socketing destructive will be superior to simply throwing an orange and a purple into random sockets. It's been such a long time since we've had a not-extraordinary meta gem that most people won't think in that mindset.

Last edited by Sarvius : 01/05/11 at 8:59 AM.

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Old 01/05/11, 8:56 AM   #75
O_t
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
<pi>
Aegwynn (EU)
The [Thundering Skyflare Diamond], assuming an optimal up time (6sec /45 sec ICD) at ≈13% => (480*1.5)*0.13 = 93.6 EP.
My combatlog includes:
minimum time between 2 applies/casts: 40.118 between casts(4&5) (line 986 1128)

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