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Old 12/10/11, 9:44 AM   #826
Artoxia
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Frostwolf (EU)
Originally Posted by Kuroiryu View Post
I'd love to know the EP value of the PvP trinkets since I already have those and they could potentially be better for PvE in the interim. Specifically Ruthless Gladiator's Badge and Insignia of Conquest.
Where's your problem? 2144 for 20 sec, 2 minutes cooldown. Get the average agility and multiply it with you agility EP.

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Old 12/10/11, 10:28 AM   #827
Kuroiryu
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Emerald Dream
Yeah, okay. I could do the math for that one. Insignia is a proc though and I don't know the ICD.

Edit: K, wait, do I convert that to agility per second?

Last edited by Kuroiryu : 12/10/11 at 10:40 AM.

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Old 12/11/11, 11:33 AM   #828
Omanko
Von Kaiser
 
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Worgen Priest
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Concerning Bandit's Guile, I have two questions:

#1 Rupture - Should this be cast indiscriminately (given debuff and proper uptime management of course) or should BG be taken into account? Intuitively I'd tend to use Eviscerate over Rupture if I can't get Insight to stay for the majority of its duration. What are the margins though? At what point does Eviscerate become the choice, if even? And what about if the bleed debuff is missing -would Rupture do more damage if it was used at the beginning of a BG cycle, sort of retroactively benefiting from increasing insight as iirc ticks are updated each time?

#2 AoE - Since BG is a buff that you gain and not a debuff on the mob, is it beneficial to anticipate AoE-phases (true AoE, not BF-cleave) with high Insight up? Does it even affect FoK damage?

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Old 12/11/11, 1:16 PM   #829
Sakuratei
Piston Honda
 
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Frostmane (EU)
Originally Posted by Omanko View Post
#1 Rupture - Should this be cast indiscriminately (given debuff and proper uptime management of course) or should BG be taken into account? Intuitively I'd tend to use Eviscerate over Rupture if I can't get Insight to stay for the majority of its duration. What are the margins though? At what point does Eviscerate become the choice, if even? And what about if the bleed debuff is missing -would Rupture do more damage if it was used at the beginning of a BG cycle, sort of retroactively benefiting from increasing insight as iirc ticks are updated each time?
Current research suggests that it is a DPS increase to Rupture any any point in the Insight cycle, assuming you are progressing through the cycle for it's duration (IE, you are using Sinister Strike/RvS on the target). If there is no bleed debuff present, it is a DPS increase to drop Rupture out of the rotation completely.

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Old 12/11/11, 4:42 PM   #830
NatakuGX
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Gnomeregan
During hero+ar+deep insight is it viable to use backstab?

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Old 12/11/11, 6:51 PM   #831
Chult86
Piston Honda
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Illidan
SO, any time I have a #1 parse get beat, I like to do a comparison to see what I could've done differently. 25H Zonozz:

CompareBot! - RaidBots - Web Tools for WoW Nerds

He's using the Axe off of Madness, and has 15~Mastery compared to my 12.5~. Considering how much more melee damage I did than him, how is his Main Gauche damage 50% higher?

I haven't seen the exact math from the Madness Axe, but from what I'm seeing, it looks like a solid upgrade over the 397 daggers =/

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Old 12/11/11, 10:27 PM   #832
Bonzoe
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Uldaman
The 45% buff on the P1 daggers you are using doesn't apply to MG (removed before 4.3 went live), so his slower weapon hits harder on each MG proc. This plus the extra mastery probably explains the ~50% difference.

Edit: After some brief tests on a training dummy using an ilvl 378 2.6 speed axe vs. an ilvl 378 1.8 speed dagger for 5 minutes each, auto-attack plus just enough SS to keep SnD up yielded the following:

2.6 speed:
Total Damage - 1.5 million
Total MG damage - 217,021
Avg MG hit - 3,000
Avg MG crit - 6,000
Avg SS - 5,700
Number of SS - 28
Total SS damage - 160,274

1.8 speed:
Total Damage - 1.4 million
Total MG damage - 142,163
Avg MG hit - 2,000
Avg MG crit - 4,000
Avg SS - 4,060
Number of SS - 33
Total SS damage - 123,156

Taking the ratio we have:
2.6 speed/1.8 speed: 144.4%
Total damage: 107.1%
Total MG damage: 152.7%
Avg MG hit - 150%
Avg MG crit - 150%
Avg SS damage - 140.3%
Total SS damage - 130.1%

Of course the most important number is the ratio of total MG damage, which shows a slow weapon 52.7% ahead (for this quick and dirty test). The exact increase from your posted log is 51.4%.

Last edited by Bonzoe : 12/12/11 at 1:32 AM.

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Old 12/12/11, 11:59 AM   #833
Muleish
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Frostmourne
Hey guys so i picked up the axe off rag last night for offspec, and after having a play with shadowcraft it is showing it as around a 2k dps increase for me, is it really that much better or is shadowcraft not modeling the daggers correctly?

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Old 12/12/11, 12:10 PM   #834
Chult86
Piston Honda
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Illidan
Originally Posted by Bonzoe View Post
The 45% buff on the P1 daggers you are using doesn't apply to MG (removed before 4.3 went live), so his slower weapon hits harder on each MG proc. This plus the extra mastery probably explains the ~50% difference.

Edit: After some brief tests on a training dummy using an ilvl 378 2.6 speed axe vs. an ilvl 378 1.8 speed dagger for 5 minutes each, auto-attack plus just enough SS to keep SnD up yielded the following:

2.6 speed:
Total Damage - 1.5 million
Total MG damage - 217,021
Avg MG hit - 3,000
Avg MG crit - 6,000
Avg SS - 5,700
Number of SS - 28
Total SS damage - 160,274

1.8 speed:
Total Damage - 1.4 million
Total MG damage - 142,163
Avg MG hit - 2,000
Avg MG crit - 4,000
Avg SS - 4,060
Number of SS - 33
Total SS damage - 123,156

Taking the ratio we have:
2.6 speed/1.8 speed: 144.4%
Total damage: 107.1%
Total MG damage: 152.7%
Avg MG hit - 150%
Avg MG crit - 150%
Avg SS damage - 140.3%
Total SS damage - 130.1%

Of course the most important number is the ratio of total MG damage, which shows a slow weapon 52.7% ahead (for this quick and dirty test). The exact increase from your posted log is 51.4%.
I know that it will hit harder using a slower MH, I just remembered the reasoning behind Blizzard removing the MG buff from the daggers was because the margin was supposed to be offset by getting more MG procs due to using a faster weapon.

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Old 12/12/11, 12:28 PM   #835
MaskedEmrys
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Rogue
 
Lightninghoof
The reason there is less overall damage from MG is because you have the same/similar numbers of MG procs from SS between a 1.8 and 2.6 (since the number of SS you use between the daggers or a 2.6 are fairly similar), and all of those deal less damage than a 2.6 speed main hand would - so the damage MG deals from procs from white attacks should be fairly equal/equivalent between a 1.8 and 2.6, but the MG procs from SS and RvS aren't because each proc deals less damage. Blizzard either was completely okay with them being bad for combat until they're legendary, or they overlooked this issue.

Last edited by MaskedEmrys : 12/12/11 at 8:47 PM. Reason: clarity

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Old 12/12/11, 12:55 PM   #836
Kodjin
Von Kaiser
 
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Pandaren Rogue
 
Ghostlands
Change note

Superb guide, thanks for your hard work on this.

One minor revision, Sinister Strike is mentioned in the Combat and rotation section as SS but it is not listed in the abbreviation table.

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Old 12/12/11, 4:21 PM   #837
Taliafears
Piston Honda
 
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Malygos
Since you get a larger number of Main Gauche procs with the dagger, you do get more energy from Combat Potency. That cuts into the loss from each MG hitting softer and, one would guess, is what lead to Blizzard removing the 45% buff for it.

However; it does not make up the difference (from what I'm seeing, equal ilvl 2.6s weapons do anywhere from 1-3% more dps). It also contributes to more frantic play since combat already suffers from energy overflow. Would be nice if they could nudge both problems in the right direction, but my guess is they will just leave it be.

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Old 12/13/11, 7:54 AM   #838
zecatone
Glass Joe
 
Human Warrior
 
Grim Batol (EU)
Is it confirmed that Vial of Shadows scales with bandit guile?

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

During Ultraxion HC i had crits of 70k and trinket did 4.3% of my dmg.

Also is it worth 4 tier13 piece? Because Burning wounds its still 3%, doesnt seem like more 3 secs of AR gonna cover it.

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Old 12/13/11, 9:55 AM   #839
Slipspace
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Arygos
Does anyone else have serious issues with energy capping as of late as combat? I used to be able to time my killing spree in such a manner that it didn't cap my energy but it always does now. Also when bloodlust and/or adrenaline rush is up and I need to use a GCD on something like tricks of the trade, it's very common for me to cap on energy because my regen is just so fast. The way I understand it, energy is predicted to never cap when predicting DPS so this is a bad thing. Am I doing something wrong?

For this reason alone I switched back to assassination just because as a single target dps spec it is much easier to be "optimal". Tips, suggestions, etc would be very helpful.

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Old 12/13/11, 11:09 AM   #840
Kuroiryu
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Emerald Dream
Sorry for the repost but I'm still looking for the answer. I'm looking for the EP values for the PvP trinkets Badge of Conquest and Insignia of Conquest. I'm not sure how to calculate the proc or how an on use EP value might change based on being paired with Adrenaline Rush. Please advise.

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