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01/07/12, 9:03 AM
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#901
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Von Kaiser
Troll Rogue
Kel'Thuzad (EU)
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Seeing how repeated mastery-related CP trigger make you cap energy as well, I don't think that it would change much. Losing like 4% attack speed and energy regen won't exactly make BL or AR less of a pain the ass for your SS-smashing finger when your additional MH-hits trigger more maingauches then. To make a fully non-biased decision on whether haste or mastery would actually make a lot more or less sense, one would have to figure out what part of the haste and mastery EP are due to attackspeed/passive energy regen and additional combat potency procs, then do the same for mastery.
Since it is possible to track how many energy was overcapping for any given fight, you could then "try" to make an objective assumption on what stat might make more sense on Patchwerk-like fights. For our last Ultraxion kill, about 1/4th of my combat potency procs were main-gauche related, that is with 2440 haste and 1281 mastery. As far as i'm concerned, swapping out haste for mastery wouldn't change much on the overall energy gain from CP procs and CP is the reason why we're overcapping in the first place.
Last edited by Seliathan : 01/07/12 at 9:09 AM.
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01/07/12, 9:30 AM
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#902
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Glass Joe
Undead Rogue
Daggerspine (EU)
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Originally Posted by Alash
Referring to the OP, is it still unknown what # of adds are required to make FoK better than BF? In this tier I guess it's only relevant on black globules at Yor'sahj and to me it seems that AR affects the outcome somewhat. Is there any math on the topic?
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I also got a more spesific question about this. During Hemorrhage on MoDW, is it better to BF + KS on the adds, and then spam FoK + Wound poison? Compared to always using KS when it's off CD and just spam FoK during Hemorrhage?
Is FoK affected by BF? I doubt it, but never seen it confirmed
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01/07/12, 4:22 PM
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#903
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Bald Bull
Night Elf Rogue
Wrathbringer (EU)
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FoK was affected by BF in WotLK until they changed it to work off your thrown weapon in Cata.
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01/07/12, 7:56 PM
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#904
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Don Flamenco
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Spellweaving is a chance to proc for every hit, so you just need to think about the number of hits you get from BF+Kspree that you wouldn't normally, which is 8 per second. There are 6 or 8 bloods that spawn for FoK to hit. Factoring in poisons, I have found that spellweaving procs will be similar enough between bf/kspree and FoK spam that it doesn't make sense to use Kspree for this purpose. You can use it on a limb for a large direct gain or use it on bloods for a potentially small gain or even loss.
On top of that, kspree's cooldown is so low that you have a very very high chance of using fewer of them total if you save it for a little while on each platform.
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01/09/12, 3:53 AM
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#905
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Glass Joe
Human Rogue
Черный Шрам (EU)
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What was the better? 4cp+SnD and 4cp+RvS for Evis OR 4cp+RvS for SnD and 5cp SS Evis?
I think the first option is better, or am I wrong?
Last edited by SilencerNT : 01/09/12 at 4:03 AM.
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01/09/12, 5:25 AM
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#906
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Don Flamenco
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The latter. I don't really know what you're talking about with the first set (a 4cp snd?), but the second rotation you listed is optimal. There is a potential for gain by using RvS when you hit 4 cp before a slice and dice and there's no drawback.
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01/09/12, 2:37 PM
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#907
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Seliathan
Seeing how repeated mastery-related CP trigger make you cap energy as well, I don't think that it would change much. Losing like 4% attack speed and energy regen won't exactly make BL or AR less of a pain the ass for your SS-smashing finger when your additional MH-hits trigger more maingauches then. To make a fully non-biased decision on whether haste or mastery would actually make a lot more or less sense, one would have to figure out what part of the haste and mastery EP are due to attackspeed/passive energy regen and additional combat potency procs, then do the same for mastery.
Since it is possible to track how many energy was overcapping for any given fight, you could then "try" to make an objective assumption on what stat might make more sense on Patchwerk-like fights. For our last Ultraxion kill, about 1/4th of my combat potency procs were main-gauche related, that is with 2440 haste and 1281 mastery. As far as i'm concerned, swapping out haste for mastery wouldn't change much on the overall energy gain from CP procs and CP is the reason why we're overcapping in the first place.
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I am quite interested in this: Can anyone post the math to how much haste is to much and when we should start stacking mastery?
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01/09/12, 6:50 PM
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#908
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Don Flamenco
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You can get a pretty large raid damage gain from using tricks on someone using a substantial cooldown, rather than simply using tricks on the highest (non pet counting) damager. A feral druid probably shouldn't be your top damager, but a feral druid with zerking up probably is unless others have CDs too. A couple minutes adding powerful cooldowns to grid, making their indicators decently large and using GridClickSets (I bind right click to tricks) lets you pretty easily glance at grid and see who has a cooldown up. Sure it won't show up on your damage, but if you're struggling to make an enrage timer, or you like being good more than looking good, a 1/2 second to look for a big pretty box and click it every 30 seconds is probably worth the extra ~1000 dps (obviously highly variable based on your raid).
Before our dk went unholy and our mage fire for 4.3 I usually ended up doing:
0:00 Tank
0:30 Enh Shaman (our damage is pretty well balanced, and she's doing the most when no one's CDs are up at 30s in)
1:00 Frost DK
1:30 Enh Shaman
2:00 Frost DK
2:30 Enh Shaman
3:00 Mage (AP back up, AP>Pillar of frost)
etc
For any fight with prime multi-dotting, swapping the SP for Enh shaman is better. For 2-3 target melee cleave times, a feral tank with zerking up is actually great to tricks or a combat rogue.
As doing this doesn't take up any button slots, can still have your typical tricks focus or such macro where it is. Also, if you're doing 25 man and looking at 25 boxes for the best tricks target is too much, can make a grid layout where your top no cd dps, 2-3 good cd dps, a super aoe dps, and the tanks are sitting together to the side/top.
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01/09/12, 6:54 PM
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#909
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Von Kaiser
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If you can time the Tricks with a Fire Mage, you can do some truly astronomical numbers. I have an addon that calculates damage gained through each Tricks application, and it was reporting gains of ~300k damage in a 6s window (typical gains are ~30-40k damage on another rogue or steady DPSer).
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01/09/12, 7:04 PM
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#910
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Armanewb
If you can time the Tricks with a Fire Mage, you can do some truly astronomical numbers. I have an addon that calculates damage gained through each Tricks application, and it was reporting gains of ~300k damage in a 6s window (typical gains are ~30-40k damage on another rogue or steady DPSer).
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Is your addon calculating the correct full damage of dots put up/refreshed during tricks or just while tricks is still active? I know trick or treat doesn't include the full dot damage which always bugs me since it makes my tricks numbers on my druid look much worse than they are. It would be nice to see some real numbers for what a sp putting up dots on a new target does compared to a non dot damager just attacking. For example, tricks on a SP right as you open on Yorshasj oozes would seem really good, but trick or treat would just tell me the sp got a couple ticks of each dot.
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01/10/12, 8:29 AM
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#911
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Von Kaiser
Human Rogue
Argent Dawn (EU)
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Originally Posted by SilencerNT
What was the better? 4cp+SnD and 4cp+RvS for Evis OR 4cp+RvS for SnD and 5cp SS Evis?
I think the first option is better, or am I wrong?
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I'd like to revive this question because I find the answer (and to be honest, the question itself as well) a bit unclear.
There is nothing to discuss about Eviscerates and general SnD refreshing rule is also pretty simple - "when it's needed". But let's say I actually have a choice - my SnD is about to drop in few seconds and I am at 4 combo points. I'd like to know which of the following is optimal: - Pooling energy (without capping it) and then using 4-CP SnD just before the old one ends.
There isn't much wrong about this in my opinion, except slightly worse "energy/duration" ratio as we get just 36 seconds of SnD instead of full 40.5 for the same energy cost.
- Using another Sinister Strike and then getting 5-CP SnD up.
Getting full SnD but with a 20% chance of wasting a combo point, so instead of SnD we get slightly less efficient SS this time.
- Using Revealing Strike and then getting 5-CP SnD up.
Getting full SnD but risking either not utilizing RvS debuff (if I decide to just ignore it and do new 4CP + RvS or when it falls of before I can use it) or wasting extra combo point from the last SS. And looking at energy cost and damage formulas of SS and RvS, it seems that it's only the debuff that makes RvS worth using.
I do realize that the difference is most likely marginal, but if somebody knows clear answer or can do the math, it would be nice to add it to the guide.
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01/10/12, 10:19 AM
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#912
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Glass Joe
Gnome Priest
Daggerspine (EU)
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Originally Posted by SilencerNT
What was the better? 4cp+SnD and 4cp+RvS for Evis OR 4cp+RvS for SnD and 5cp SS Evis?
I think the first option is better, or am I wrong?
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The second option is better assuming your next SS is with the RvS debuff on, otherwise if for some reason that doesn't happen (change of target etc. 4cp+SS Snd and 4cp+RvS is better - stemming from the 5combo finisher energy efficiency)
Originally Posted by Fae
Using Revealing Strike and then getting 5-CP SnD up.
Getting full SnD but risking either not utilizing RvS debuff (if I decide to just ignore it and do new 4CP + RvS or when it falls of before I can use it) or wasting extra combo point from the last SS. And looking at energy cost and damage formulas of SS and RvS, it seems that it's only the debuff that makes RvS worth using.
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This is quite obviously the optimal case if you are not going to ignore the RvS debuff on the target (by doing a 4cp+RvS on the next finisher). It has been explained over the previous pages but in summary, you lose nothing, assuming you cast your next finisher before the RvS debuff falls off, and you get a gain in the case when your next finisher gets to 5cp from 3cp with a SS glyph crit. (no wasted CP, and the 35% damage on the finisher). If this doesn't happen, just SS to 5 cps on the next finisher.
Last edited by Bledoc : 01/10/12 at 10:23 AM.
Reason: Added relevant previous post
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01/10/12, 3:03 PM
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#913
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Glass Joe
Human Rogue
Silvermoon (EU)
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I've heard rumours that [Spine of the Thousand Cuts] is better than [Fear] for Combat. How true would this stand? Myself I cannot see a very huge difference but I guess it might be better due to more IP procs and KS damage?
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01/11/12, 6:10 AM
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#914
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Von Kaiser
Human Rogue
Frostmane (EU)
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With some internal testing, we found that even the FL heroic mace (ilevel 391) would surpass the t1 dagger mainhand, so it's only logical that one would surpass the dagger as well. At the current state, you'll most likely wind up using another main hand till you reach the legendary stage, seeing as FL heroic mace or higher beats stage 1 mh, and no'kaled normal beats the stage 2 mh.
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01/11/12, 7:46 AM
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#915
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Sulphuric
With some internal testing, ... , and no'kaled normal beats the stage 2 mh.
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Did you also do internal testing on that last part? Since afaik no'kaled is still being overvalued in shadowcraft, and I remember Aldriana saying that it's definitely better than stage1, but by how much (and thus, if it'll surpass stage2) isn't clear.
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