Combat Guide for Cata [12/01/2011] - Page 62

naknekm · 01/11/12, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Sulphuric

With some internal testing, we found that even the FL heroic mace (ilevel 391) would surpass the t1 dagger mainhand, so it's only logical that one would surpass the dagger as well. At the current state, you'll most likely wind up using another main hand till you reach the legendary stage, seeing as FL heroic mace or higher beats stage 1 mh, and no'kaled normal beats the stage 2 mh.

So, here is some anecdotal evidence. I have the lfr axe, the 397 mace and the stage one daggers. I tested on LFR Ultra with each. Not knowing whether the raid buffs were the same, nonetheless, the axe and dagger came out about even. I did 32.5 with the axe and 32.6 with the daggers. The mace was well behind 2 different times at about 29.4 average.

I do wonder about fights where you have to change targets. It seems to me that the daggers require a lot of ramp up time and that might make a difference favoring the axe. So, I am going to run with the lfr axe till the normal one drops for me or till I get stage 2 daggers and retest at that point.

• RobotChicken · 01/11/12, 9:17 PM

Originally Posted by naknekm

So, here is some anecdotal evidence. I have the lfr axe, the 397 mace and the stage one daggers. I tested on LFR Ultra with each. Not knowing whether the raid buffs were the same, nonetheless, the axe and dagger came out about even. I did 32.5 with the axe and 32.6 with the daggers. The mace was well behind 2 different times at about 29.4 average.

I do wonder about fights where you have to change targets. It seems to me that the daggers require a lot of ramp up time and that might make a difference favoring the axe. So, I am going to run with the lfr axe till the normal one drops for me or till I get stage 2 daggers and retest at that point.

The daggers only require a personal ramp up time, so unless you are taking significantly longer than ~15 seconds to swap targets, it isn't really an issue. Though that isn't to mention anything about the ramp up itself being a bit of an issue.

shinwa · 01/12/12, 3:40 AM

I was just watching Killars armory and i noticed he doesn't use the Trick of the Trade glyph in his combat spec.
Thinking about the reason, the best i could guess is probably cause you have so much energy to spend with combat that the 5% more damage actually overcomes the no energy cost, any suggestions?

Kushiina · 01/12/12, 5:30 AM

For the DW Madness fight i woudn't use Trix glyphe.
We get a haste + dmg buff --> extra 15 energy per trix will be weaker than the 5% dmg buff for the raid.

Naihan · 01/12/12, 2:42 PM

If you want to know whether or not it's worth it, remove your TotT glyph in shadowcraft. Look at how much damage you lost. Now look at your logs and find the DPS of the person you tricks. Adjust their damage to find out what they were doing without your tricks (100% + 10% * (6 seconds / 30 seconds)) * pre-tricks DPS) = tricked-DPS, i.e. pre-tricks DPS = tricked-DPS / 1.02. Now find out exactly what they would gain from an additional 5% of tricks: 5% * (6 seconds / 30 seconds)) * pre-tricks DPS = 0.01 * pre-tricks DPS = raid DPS gained from removing glyph. If the calculated raid DPS gained is greater than your dps lost from removing the glyph, it's better to un-glyph it. If not, keep the glyph.

Bryt · 01/12/12, 5:18 PM

Killars also swapped out the tricks glyph for the feint glyph. On fights where you are using feint constantly, you could save more energy with this glyph than with the tricks glyph. Feint costs 20 energy and 0 when glyphed where as tricks costs 15 energy and 0 when glyphed (and -5% damage). If you find yourself using feint every 30 -40 seconds or less, then you would gain more energy during that fight with a free feint than a free tricks. I am not sure Shadowcraft has a way to model DPS change from the energy gained when using the Feint glyph.

As to why not have both the feint and tricks glyph for the fight where you need to use feint a lot, I'd refer to Naihan's response above.

Vigilate · 01/12/12, 10:26 PM

It looks like Adrenaline Rush is getting a slight buff in 4.3.2

World of Warcraft PTR Patch 4.3.2 Notes - MMO-Champion BlueTracker

Rogues

Adrenaline Rush no longer triggers a global cooldown.

Naihan · 01/13/12, 3:36 AM

I think that it's a little more significant than slight. We're getting a free GCD-time's worth of AR buffed energy regen every time we use AR, which is effectively once every 70-85 seconds. That's a significant amount of energy.

lairpie · 01/13/12, 1:16 PM

Originally Posted by Bryt

Killars also swapped out the tricks glyph for the feint glyph. On fights where you are using feint constantly, you could save more energy with this glyph than with the tricks glyph. Feint costs 20 energy and 0 when glyphed where as tricks costs 15 energy and 0 when glyphed (and -5% damage). If you find yourself using feint every 30 -40 seconds or less, then you would gain more energy during that fight with a free feint than a free tricks.

The feint glyph is incredibly useful on any fight where you would get hit by aoe pretty often and thus would be using feint a lot, so... every single fight except Hagara. It wouldn't be useless even on Hagara, but the sprint glyph would probably be better. I highly doubt there are many rogues not using the feint glyph and casting feint a lot for most fights. I imagine (on anything other than hagara) your healers doing dps because they didn't have to heal you as much would be more damage for the raid than you'd get out of any other 3rd glyph.

Sulphuric · 01/13/12, 1:27 PM

There's honestly no reason to not use both feint and tricks glyphs on every encounter, unless as specified - that it turns out to be a dps increase to unglyph tricks. You can argue that 30%+ speed during sprint is useful, but it'll never be a case where the glyph alone would save you.

lairpie · 01/13/12, 1:33 PM

Originally Posted by Sulphuric

There's honestly no reason to not use both feint and tricks glyphs on every encounter, unless as specified - that it turns out to be a dps increase to unglyph tricks. You can argue that 30%+ speed during sprint is useful, but it'll never be a case where the glyph alone would save you.

You spend virtually no time getting aoed on hagara, only the lightning phase, which is really, really short when done correctly. The extra time on target in the frost phase from sprinting faster should make up for the loss of damage if you feint on the lightning add. That said, its pretty minimal either way and I'd be lying to say I actually bother to swap it.

Naihan · 01/13/12, 5:11 PM

Originally Posted by lairpie

You spend virtually no time getting aoed on hagara, only the lightning phase, which is really, really short when done correctly. The extra time on target in the frost phase from sprinting faster should make up for the loss of damage if you feint on the lightning add. That said, its pretty minimal either way and I'd be lying to say I actually bother to swap it.

The other choices for our minor glyphs could never justify not having GoFeint for every fight. What else is there really?

baakss · 01/14/12, 12:01 AM

The AR change could also benefit the legendary. Previously, if you got a legendary proc just before AR cooldown was up, you would probably have had to AR during your legendary proc in order to get the cooldown reduction out of the last 3-4 eviscerates. Now, you'll gain one eviscerate and 10 seconds off the cooldown of your next AR if the legendary procs in what would have previously been unfavorable circumstances.

RemJay24 · 01/14/12, 3:26 AM

Originally Posted by sorrymyfault

I sry my english aint the best but i got one question, why enchant the gloves with mastery or expertise and not haste?

The +65 mastery enchant ranks slightly higher than +50 haste for DPS/EP. Sure, haste is our best stat per point, but the extra +15 (50+15) to mastery helps push that enchant above the haste enchant. Much like the +65 crit cloak enchant (our weakest stat) is better than the 22 agility to cloak enchant.

Lominen · 01/15/12, 3:56 AM

Forgive me if this is stated elsewhere, but I can't seem to find it despite searching through a lot of pages. Given the amount of haste on DS gear and the insane of amounts of ways to retain more energy, at what point would it be worth it to stop forging haste and start going for mastery?