Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Rogues

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01/20/12, 12:40 PM   #946
Fae
Von Kaiser
 
Human Rogue
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
Certainly. It's still not a bad idea to start AR while being low on energy to reduce risk of capping later, but not having a whole GCD with no energy cost and insane energy regen is a huge plus.

I can see a macro like this being quite useful (please note that I don't mean to use it INSTEAD of your main SS button):
/cast Adrenaline Rush
/cast Sinister Strike
I think this change also somewhat increases value of Fangs proc for combat. As it is now, when you are unlucky and get the proc while having let's say 20s CD on AR, you either won't utilize it fully to reduce AR cooldown or you have to waste a GCD during the proc to cast AR. When the change goes live, I think a macro like this will come in handy:
/cast Adrenaline Rush
/cast Eviscerate

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/20/12, 12:43 PM   #947
Schmoopy
Von Kaiser
 
Schmoopy's Avatar
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Alash View Post
On a slightly related note, do you guys see the removal of AR's GCD change anything in the opener? There's no mention of an opener sequence in the guide, but I usually do SS x2 > SnD > SS x2 > KS > SS x1-2 > AR to avoid capping before AR; do you reckon it's worth it to skip straight to AR after KS now?
No. The reason for the 1-2 SS after KS is to drain off the energy that pools during KS.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/23/12, 11:03 AM   #948
tito149
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
Thunderhorn
I was crunching some numbers using the T13 EP values, and it looks to me like using Hurricane as the offhand enchant now provides more total EP value for Combat than does using Landslide as the offhand enchant.

Landslide on OH:
Estimating 20% uptime (1 PPM or 12 out of 60 seconds) on Landslide means 200 total EP (.20*1000*1.00)

Hurricane on OH:
Estimating 20% uptime (1 PPM or 12 out of 60 seconds) on Hurricane from melee plus an additional ~25% uptime for spells/poisons (45 second ICD, 15% proc chance) means total ~388 total EP (.45*450*1.87).

I know the amount of haste a rogue has will increase the actual melee proc amounts and will slightly boost the relative value of landslide here, but the total EP comparison without considering melee haste wasnt really close. Or am I missing something?

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/23/12, 11:20 AM   #949
Armanewb
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Executus
1. You're not accounting for the 20% AP bonus we get for Landslide from the new Blessing of Might. Recalculating using the buff gives 240 EP.

2. The calculation for Hurricane is wrong. It has a 12 second duration with a 45s ICD for an expected haste of 12/45 * 450. Multiply that by the haste weight you're using (1.87) and it comes out to be worth 224.4.

3. Actual uptime won't even be as high as 12/45 since it has a relatively low chance to proc (15%) off a weapon that we do nothing with except white swing. Using an estimate of 50s gives an expected EP of barely 200 EP.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/23/12, 11:46 AM   #950
tito149
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
Thunderhorn
Originally Posted by Armanewb View Post
2. The calculation for Hurricane is wrong. It has a 12 second duration with a 45s ICD for an expected haste of 12/45 * 450. Multiply that by the haste weight you're using (1.87) and it comes out to be worth 224.4.

3. Actual uptime won't even be as high as 12/45 since it has a relatively low chance to proc (15%) off a weapon that we do nothing with except white swing. Using an estimate of 50s gives an expected EP of barely 200 EP.
Armanewb, good catch on blessing of might, but I believe you are not correctly referencing the full potential benefit of the Hurricane enchant; As Aldriana listed in his mechanics testing thread "34. On physical attacks, Hurricane acts like a regular 1 PPM enchant. On spells, it is a 45 second ICD and a 15% proc rate. If a spell proc occurs while a melee proc is active, it will refresh the melee proc. If a spell proc occurs with no melee proc, it will create a separate stack of the buff, potentially resulting in 3 stacks being up at the same time." In early Cataclysm with it on just my offhand I had logs showing between 40-50% uptime (I would link but they no longer active logs since they were from about a year ago).

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/23/12, 2:03 PM   #951
yakut
Glass Joe
 
Pandaren Rogue
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by tito149 View Post
I was crunching some numbers using the T13 EP values, and it looks to me like using Hurricane as the offhand enchant now provides more total EP value for Combat than does using Landslide as the offhand enchant.

Landslide on OH:
Estimating 20% uptime (1 PPM or 12 out of 60 seconds) on Landslide means 200 total EP (.20*1000*1.00)

Hurricane on OH:
Estimating 20% uptime (1 PPM or 12 out of 60 seconds) on Hurricane from melee plus an additional ~25% uptime for spells/poisons (45 second ICD, 15% proc chance) means total ~388 total EP (.45*450*1.87).

I know the amount of haste a rogue has will increase the actual melee proc amounts and will slightly boost the relative value of landslide here, but the total EP comparison without considering melee haste wasnt really close. Or am I missing something?
Correcting for what was pointed out in a few posts above:

Landslide on OH:
Estimating 20% uptime (1 PPM or 12 out of 60 seconds) on Landslide means 200 total EP (.20*1000*1.00)
Would instead be:

Landslide on OH:
Estimating 20% uptime (1 PPM or 12 out of 60 seconds) on Landslide means 240 total EP (.20*1000*1.00*1.2)

(Where 1.2 = blessing of might)

I'm somewhat leery with regards to replacing an attack power enchant. While you would certainly increase your haste, and subsequently get slightly more melee swings and a very fractional amount of energy regen, you would be losing damage on abilities based on attack power (which should be everything as AP gets converted to weapon damage - or just uses attack power like rupture). To whit: (0.2 * 1000 * 1.0 * 1.2) / 14 = weapon damage added on average from landslide. It would affect auto attack, main gauche, rupture, eviscerate, sinister strike, and killing spree if you switched to hurricane on the OH. On the other hand, the amount of haste gained by using hurricane doesn't seem as useful (especially during AR and/or fights where it is nearly impossible to avoid being energy capped).

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/23/12, 3:23 PM   #952
Armanewb
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Executus
Originally Posted by tito149 View Post
Armanewb, good catch on blessing of might, but I believe you are not correctly referencing the full potential benefit of the Hurricane enchant; As Aldriana listed in his mechanics testing thread "34. On physical attacks, Hurricane acts like a regular 1 PPM enchant. On spells, it is a 45 second ICD and a 15% proc rate. If a spell proc occurs while a melee proc is active, it will refresh the melee proc. If a spell proc occurs with no melee proc, it will create a separate stack of the buff, potentially resulting in 3 stacks being up at the same time." In early Cataclysm with it on just my offhand I had logs showing between 40-50% uptime (I would link but they no longer active logs since they were from about a year ago).
You are correct about the mistake in value, I didn't realize that. However, I still feel like you are overvaluing Hurricane.

Firstly, the spell proc can refresh the melee proc. This in practice leads to some truncation of the actual uptime above and beyond the fact that melee procs can refresh as well, so simply modelling it as Uptime of Spell + Uptime of Melee is going to overvalue it (in fact, the same applies to Landslide since it does not have an ICD either). Secondly, a 15% chance to proc off spells is going to be lower than a 15% chance to proc off OH swings by the very nature that you've introduced another fork in the probability tree. While this is getting to the point where we either need solid logs or a more complete understanding of mechanics beyond napkinmath, remember that as a rule of thumb the uptime must be, with a haste weight of 1.87, 42% higher than landslide for it to be worth it:

Let X be Hurricane uptime and Y be Landslide uptime.
X*450*1.87 > Y*1000*1.2
X/Y > 1200 / 841.5
X/Y > 1.426

And as a final aside, there will be points in time where the EP of Haste will be reduced (although not by too much) due to energy capping. This might not be a great impact, but if they are close to each other it can be the difference.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/23/12, 3:29 PM   #953
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
So, couple of points here.

1) The EP value of AP (1) already factors in things like Blessing of Might, just like the EP value of Agility factors in Kings and Leather Specialization. So the factor of 1.2 is unnecessary.
2) However, the uptime of a 1PPM proc - even on the OH - is significantly more than 20%. And the uptime gained from OH PPM strikes and spell procs does not stack in purely additive fashion. Hence, the uptime advantage granted by Hurricane is nowhere near as large as estimated.
3) Even if Hurricane has a theoretical advantage, the realities of energy capping interfere; I wouldn't drop an AP effect for a haste one unless Hurricane had a pretty clear advantage, and it doesn't. So while Hurricane is a reasonable budget enchant for the OH, I don't see any reason to prefer it if you have equal access to both options.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/23/12, 5:42 PM   #954
yakut
Glass Joe
 
Pandaren Rogue
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
And the uptime gained from OH PPM strikes and spell procs does not stack in purely additive fashion. Hence, the uptime advantage granted by Hurricane is nowhere near as large as estimated.
My assumption would be multiplicative, is this correct?

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/23/12, 7:06 PM   #955
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Ah, if only it were that simple.

Hurricane's spell procs and attack procs stack/overlap with each other... oddly... so in truth the uptime benefits are somewhere between what additive would tell you and what multiplicative would tell you.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/23/12, 8:07 PM   #956
yakut
Glass Joe
 
Pandaren Rogue
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Ah, if only it were that simple.

Hurricane's spell procs and attack procs stack/overlap with each other... oddly... so in truth the uptime benefits are somewhere between what additive would tell you and what multiplicative would tell you.
Mmm. That sounds like either one of two scenarios is the case:

1.) The melee version of the proc is additive and the caster version of the proc is multiplicative.
or
2.) The melee version of the proc is multiplicative and the caster version of the proc is additive.

That might explain the weird behavior evidenced.

Last edited by yakut : 01/23/12 at 8:08 PM. Reason: Adjust word choice

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/23/12, 10:45 PM   #957
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Well, addition and multiplication commute, so that's sort of a bad way of explaining it.

Basically, if the buffs stacked, uptimes would add. If the overlapped, they'd multiply. But in fact they overlap when they occur in one order and overlap when they occur in the other order, so...

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/25/12, 11:09 AM   #958
Kromos
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Ragnaros
Hey, according to the last build of shadowcraft, it' s DPS increase to use Killing Spree on CD instead of waiting for Deep Insight? It's the same with AR? (I've heard some people on Blizz forums using AR with Bloodlust on the pull for Restless Blades effectiveness) Thanks in advance

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/25/12, 4:11 PM   #959
Ventris
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Windrunner
this is a question regarding 10H zon'ozz, not sure if this is right place but I specifically play combat since we go ranged heavy to handle adds.

are other rogues staying on the boss full time, even during dark phases? I've been having issues with DPS dropping from target swapping and I've been seeing that for combat it seems better to stick on the boss, blow cooldowns during void, and burn him rather than hit him, off to an eye, dropping insight stacks, then back again. we're coming up just a few % short on DPS and trying to max time on this.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/25/12, 7:02 PM   #960
Slackerkgs
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
<KGS>
Boulderfist (EU)
I stick on the boss full time on Zon'ozz, no switching at all. Dark Phase isn't a problem, feint as it begins and your healers should be able to keep you up with a heal or two. When the boss moves to the claw pop blade flurry to cleave it down. We usually run 4 ranged, 2 melee dps and the 4 ranged can take care of the adds without too many problems.

If you're only lacking a couple of %, I suggest being a bit more "greedy" with your dps. I used to feint all orb hits to help out the healers, but caused me to cap on energy alot. After a while I just accepted that the healers would have to deal with the extra dmg and keep me up through it if we were going to down him.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Rogues

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Assassination Guide for Cata [12/01/2011] ieatpaperbag Rogues 886 06/27/12 5:15 AM