Combat Guide for Cata [12/01/2011] - Page 9

Jestyr991 · 01/11/11, 3:41 PM

Originally Posted by Halbarad

I used Wildflowers in my ofhand, so I dont hit with it, I also checked by standing at an angle and only using SS (with a dagger in offhand) it still procs MG, both yield 0 CP return.

Edit, and yes if I stand normaly and use a dagger I get CP procs from offhand hits.

And I presume you also get CP procs when MH=Dagger OH=Wild flowers just auto attacking? My thoughts are that the Wild flowers prevent an OH attack from happening and may be preventing CP from happening even if MG is a MH swing, it may be working off the OH for the actual ability to register.

Gorathra · 01/11/11, 3:44 PM

Wouldn't the 5% energy regen from the Vitality buff make up for the loss of CP proc from MG hits?

Dracen · 01/11/11, 4:07 PM

Vitality didn't get an energy regen buff. It was already at 25% for regen. It's the AP buff that was only at 20% and has now been increased to 25%.

Kumar · 01/11/11, 5:14 PM

So what is the net effect on DPS/EP value if Mastery no longer procs CP?

orderofmaken · 01/11/11, 9:22 PM

While the new changes for combat look like things are going in the right direction, especially redirect for add changes, one of the major issues still remains' that the mass energy regen overbundance, which will only get worse over time.

Usually its fine in a fight until you pop Adreneline rush and get a lot of procs from CP, also gaining more energy from your finishers which leads to getting so much you can't get rid of it fast enough in a global. Might be better if they nerfed the amount of energy regen from AR a little and gave something else instead to make up for it. Or make revealing strike not cost a global might make things a little easier in the rotation as well.

I find that the only time really I struggle to get rid of mass energy. Sometimes during heroism as well.

dood3lz · 01/12/11, 6:05 AM

if energy regen is that high would it be a dps increase to skill Ruthlessness instead of Relentless Strike?

Sarvius · 01/12/11, 7:56 AM

Relentless strikes will retain 100% of its value until we actually reach the point where we have more energy than we can use. Which, at over 5000 haste, is unlikely to be hit this expansion. People seem to be confusing how spammy the spec feels with actual energy inefficiency. No matter how many times someone posts "sometimes you just get so much energy that you can't dump it in a global," combat rogues are really not energy capping outside AR unless they're doing something wrong. If the EP value of haste makes it the best non-cappable stat in current gear and talent trees, it's because it is. Not because the spreadsheet is somehow confused or hasn't accounted for something.

As far as I understand it, relentless strikes is one of the highest dps-per-point talents rogues have. It's very unlikely that it's going to be replaced, and especially not for a talent like ruthlessness which is specifically low in value.

Sulphuric · 01/12/11, 7:57 AM

Originally Posted by dood3lz

if energy regen is that high would it be a dps increase to skill Ruthlessness instead of Relentless Strike?

Well, you should already be 2/3 into ruthlessness unless you spec'ed into Quickening (which is inferior to both of them). But let's just hope Blizzard acknowledges and adresses our energy regen before we have to look into the best ways to get rid of our energy gains. However, I still don't get why they didn't react after the amount of energy we had going to waste with the Cataclysm patch in ICC, seeing as back then, we already capped energy fairly common without the usage of Adrealine Rush.

Kuroiryu · 01/12/11, 8:03 AM

Q1: Someone mentioned not rupturing in Deep Insight. Is rupture damage based on current stats and not stats when applied or something?

Q2: Is it better to AR to get to Deep Insight or AR while in Deep Insight?

Sulphuric · 01/12/11, 8:07 AM

Originally Posted by Kuroiryu

Q1: Someone mentioned not rupturing in Deep Insight. Is rupture damage based on current stats and not stats when applied or something?

Q2: Is it better to AR to get to Deep Insight or AR while in Deep Insight?

The Rupture against Eviscerate during Deep Insight haven't been properly modelled yet, but chances are high that it's always beneficial to Eviscerate during the last seconds of Deep Insight, because Rupture's damage is based on your current stats/effects when the tick occours.

And you're better off using AR at the start of the fight to build up to Deep Insight, and then use KSp once you're into Deep Insight and AR already faded.

Akagi · 01/12/11, 8:37 AM

From my understanding and experience with AR and Insight, generally since you will be using SS and RvS extremely rapidly during AR, you will most likely, no matter what level of Insight you're at when you use AR, spend most of your Deep Insight with AR up, provided you've glyphed it, at least. And as above, you can take any remaining time of Deep Insight and use KSp with it.

orderofmaken · 01/12/11, 9:48 AM

Pretty much, from raiding as combat I've found that you generally use up most of your deepinsight if provided you've glyph AR and use it straight into a fight. You might be lucky to have a spare second or two at the end but you might energy cap during those seconds if you use KS depending what your energy bar is like.

I've also tried using KS at the start before popping AR and found that you get a second KS up practically almost by the time AR is over because of RB during that AR.

Onodrim · 01/12/11, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by Darqmuse

Isn't it obvious that Revealing Strike should not share the Global Cooldown. Energy capping would be solved and you make revealing strike that much more powerful.

If I understand you and a few others correctly, you're suggesting to simply remove the global cooldown from Revealing Strike. Such a change holds certain ramifications for game play outside of raid content. Both in other PVE situations, but especially in a PvP environment.

If rogues were handed a damaging ability with no cooldown, global or other, we'd be able to deal massive burst damage. Contemplate, as an example, the combination of Revealing Strike with no global cooldown and Adrenaline Rush.

I have no evidence to support it, but I think it unlikely for Blizzard to remove the global cooldown of a stable damaging ability that has no cooldown to begin with. If so, I guess it'd require a larger re-work of Revealing Strike.

Kiar · 01/12/11, 11:19 AM

That problem could be somewhat mended by giving Revealing Strike a cooldown of 2 to 3 seconds, which would have practically no impact on PvE as I can't think of situations where you can build up a finisher quick enough to run into the cooldown while making sure that you can't unload your energy bar with a single ability within a second in PvP.
However, I don't think this thread is the place to bring up ideas or fantasies without base of how Blizzard can buff us. I sincerely doubt Blizzard would ever take any instant cast damaging ability without cooldown off the global cooldown anyways. That's wishful thinking to the extreme.

More to the point of Deep Insight and the usage of Adrenaline Rush: I've always been under the assumption that you're best off waiting with AR till you are at least in the yellow (+20%) damage phase of Deep Insight so that once you use AR, you can spend most of the Deep Insight duration on the red (+30%) damage part with AR up, granting not only increased amounts of specials, but also the 20% haste component of AR with maximum damage.
It would also make sense to me that you use KS before AR so that you can take off a rather large part of the cooldown with the extra finishers during AR.

orderofmaken · 01/12/11, 11:38 AM

That was the general idea I was thinking as well with AR and KS use. Since if you are waiting to pool BG up to 20% before you use AR, it would mean that you use all of BG during deep insight on AR, leaving KS sitting there until the next cycle and not getting refreshed through RB. But, at the same time, by waiting to use AR you are probably missing 20-30 seconds of the cd not being shaved off through finishers beforehand.

At the moment, I'm pretty much popping KS at the start of a fight, getting SnD up then when energy is low enough popping AR to try avoid capping soon as I can. Rather have those RB finishers removing cd on those abilities than sitting there idle at the beginning of a fight.

Also is nice when your pre-potting that you gain the extra damage through your AR and KS using them at the beginning.