Cataclysm Subtlety Compendium - Page 13

Chemii · 07/02/11, 5:36 AM

I know the base stat is mastery but because it only has a 1 min cooldown meaning it will line up with every ShadowDance is the Ancient Petrified Seed a good option for Sub?

Sadly Shadowcraft doesn't seem to obtain the information at the moment.

Archaene · 07/05/11, 11:39 AM

I know people are noticing this, but with the current gear we have (most people have), Sub Rogues are going to be far over hit. Is Precision really worth it? The EP Values on Spell Hit are not high, and the 2 points in Precision could be moved to better benefit DPS. I see multiple talents in the Assass Tree that would help with overall DPS, and some survivability is still left in Sub Tree.

Anyone looked into this? My rogue is at about 12% Hit with 2/3 Precision. Without 2/3 Precision, you should be right at cap (1/3 Precision if you need 2% extra hit). Sorry if I have missed this.

sabiczech · 07/07/11, 4:35 AM

You are right. Yesterday I dropped 1 point from Precision to Coup de grace and it worked for me just fine. So the new DPS spec is something like this 9/1/31 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft???

yunero · 07/07/11, 8:33 AM

What is the value of Ruthlessness in that scenario? You are spamming finishers quite frequent anyway.

Archaene · 07/07/11, 11:35 AM

That is exactly what I changed mine to, one point from Precision to Coup De Grace. Increased Evis damage is more than 2% Spell Hit.

Kroyfel · 07/07/11, 12:45 PM

I don't think sub is running into hit problems currently. Remember that the hit chance in the character panel already takes Precision into account. Plugging my gear into shadowcraft for subtlety I end up almost 6% below spell hit cap after reforges. Changing to the above spec lowers my dps by almost 100 so I doubt it's a good idea.

Jaybird · 07/07/11, 3:40 PM

Sub doesn't need to aim for spell-hit though, and even in my (mostly Zandalar) gear with every +hit item reforged to Haste / Crit I am still sitting at 8.5% hit.

However, I believe point-for-point Precision has the highest value precisely because it allows you to reforge off all +hit on your gear, so until you can drop 1 point in Precision *and* reforge all hit off gear, and still remain above 8% +hit you are better off sticking with Precision.

Archaene · 07/07/11, 4:28 PM

Originally Posted by Jaybird

Sub doesn't need to aim for spell-hit though, and even in my (mostly Zandalar) gear with every +hit item reforged to Haste / Crit I am still sitting at 8.5% hit.

However, I believe point-for-point Precision has the highest value precisely because it allows you to reforge off all +hit on your gear, so until you can drop 1 point in Precision *and* reforge all hit off gear, and still remain above 8% +hit you are better off sticking with Precision.

We were taking this into account. No Sub rogues should ever have to reforge or gem for hit if they are 2/3 Precision. The hit rating on the gear in T11 and T12 is just too high for it to happen. At this point, you can take 1 (or 2, depending on gear) out of Precision and put it in Coup De Grace (and an additional talent if you are 0/3 Precision).

Synek · 07/07/11, 6:35 PM

The point is that taking precision opens up itemization in Haste/Crit. I'm not saying that Precision is better than taking a third in Coup de Grace, but I think you are jumping to conclusions based on the idea that Sub doesn't go for Spell Hit, when that's not the point of taking Precision anyway.

Jaybird · 07/08/11, 3:59 AM

Originally Posted by Archaene

We were taking this into account. No Sub rogues should ever have to reforge or gem for hit if they are 2/3 Precision. The hit rating on the gear in T11 and T12 is just too high for it to happen. At this point, you can take 1 (or 2, depending on gear) out of Precision and put it in Coup De Grace (and an additional talent if you are 0/3 Precision).

My response was to Kroyfel, who's reply implied that he thought spell hit is something Sub rogues should be aiming for. Perhaps I wasn't clear - I agree with you that at some point Precision points can be better spent in other DPS talents, however that point is after you have taken all possible hit off your gear through reforging / gemming, and are still 2%+ over the 8% yellow hit cap.

Until that point, as Synek said, Precision opens up reforge options that make it point-for-point more valuable than the DPS talent options available.

Jaybird · 07/13/11, 4:04 AM

I have a question about Sub Mastery. Last night I got a couple 359 items to replace 353 items (I know I'm behind the gear curve), but with bad stat allocations (i.e. heavy in Mastery). After gemming, enchanting and reforging the net result was a drop of about ~1.5% in haste, and a ~2 point gain in Mastery.

This concerned me because while on stat weightings the increased agi outweighed the lost haste, it was not by much. However, on testing vs a target dummy, it appears that the Mastery gain exactly off-set the lost haste when it comes to attack speed under SnD. I know that Energy regen is also effected (I think mine dropped by a little over 1 energy / sec) - is this the only reason why Mastery so far behind Haste for Sub? Do the stat weightings (in the OP and also in the ShadowCraft tool) take into account the increase from +16% to +20% SnD from Mastery that was introduced in 4.1 for Sub?

Synek · 07/13/11, 5:57 PM

Has anybody else experienced super-high damage this reset (or before)? I'm sure it applies to all specs, but I noticed it as Subtlety (and I don't know if other specs have gotten this bug), hence why I post it here.

I'm sure it's a bug of some sort, but here's the log:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Seems like double damage on a lot of things (Ambush/Backstab/Hemo/Evis/DP), and I have checked in-game and on the logs, and I had no buffs that could have caused this.

Has anyone else seen this?

CortDK · 07/13/11, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by Synek

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

I've looked over your log but can't see anything special. Looks like you switched to SUB specifically for Baleroc. Your damage on the trash before was ordinary. Can't see any strange buff that you got. But from the very beginning of Baleroc, as you say, all of your hits were doing close to double damage.

For anyone investigating, a thread has also been created at mmo-champ.

For example, comparing you to the #2 sub rogue on WOL ( World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis )

Backstab 3030522 37.4 % 25 13788.0 344699 80 33572.8 2685823
Melee 2146505 26.5 % 181 2219.5 401731 277 5175.2 1433541

Backstab 2635126 29.2 % 20 21618.1 432362 43 51227.1 2202764
Melee 2257291 25.0 % 101 3405.8 343982 199 7852.2 1562592

You're hitting like a truck.

Using the expression editor with: Spell = "Backstab" and type = TYPE_DAMAGE

Across the entire fight for crits Skia is in the range 26k-49k, Synek is 40-72k.

♦ Viper · 07/14/11, 4:14 AM

Looks more like every ability is doing nearly exactly 50% more damage than it should. Off the top of my head I can't think of any talents or buffs that would have that sort of effect (even if they were bugged and applied for the whole fight).

For example, your 5-stacked deadly poison was ticking for somewhere in the ballpark of 8k. On a related note it was ticking for roughly the same on Rhyolith, if you ignore his damage reduction. So whatever happened seems to not be specific to Baleroc.

Chemii · 07/14/11, 8:39 AM

I just wanted to ask about the Glyph of Eviscerate Vs Glyph of Rupture.

It seems to me that my main problem with Sub is keeping rupture rolling through whatever encounter mechanics may get in the way, particularly whilst under the effect of find weakness and if its really that important to keep it up, surely that out weighs the crit rate of Eviscerate?

In a practical sense it seems like another 4 seconds is a life time to make the very tight rotation a little easier but I don't see any mention of it here.

**edit**

It seems Omni mentioned this very briefly in one of his original posts