It's proc is worth about 250 weapon damage plus some extra Rupture/DP damage if you happen to put up Rupture/proc DP during that time. Needless to say, it sucks now.

Done. If anyone would like to calculate the EP for the 4.2 trinkets I will update the original list.

Because the DoT applied by [Glyph of Hemorrhage] is based on the damage done by your hemo, any buffs you have at the time of the hemo will increase the damage done by the dot.

Looking over my kill from Baleroc for the other night, my hemo ranged from 9304 (non-crit, towards the end of the fight after some people with raid buffs started dying) to 34922 (crit, agi potion, find weakness, landslide).

As an optimization to normal hemo weaving, would it make sense to refresh the hemo dot when it can be overwritten with a better one?

Crits obviously complicate things - i.e. it's not that useful to overwrite a buffless hemo crit with a fully-buffed non-crit.

I'm currently Using Matrix Restabilizer, and essence of the cyclone as my trinkets and I'm noticing that cyclone will proc causing my Matrix to proc crit aswell, should i use a different trinket so it will proc haste?

for the talent Sanguinary Vein ( +16% dmg when target has bleed effect on them), does a druids or warriors bleed effect from your raid count? i think it should couse it doesnt say your bleed effect on target, just says when target has a bleed effect on them.
i got feral druid and fury warrior in my raid so i am guessing i dont need glyph of hemmo.
am i right?

If you can't get more then 4 moves in during Shadow Dance then you need to pool more before casting it.

4 Ambushes and 2 Eviscerates costs 180 energy, if you start at 90 energy, you only need to generate another 90 during the 6 seconds of Shadow Dance which is very doable. Personally, at 11.83 e/s while sitting in Stormwind, that gives me 70.98 energy over the duration of Shadow Dance. Rounding that down for the sake of latency (+ simpler number, YMMV, etc), we'll call that 70. This leaves a gap of 20 energy, which is made up by two procs of Energetic Recovery.

6 Ambushes costs 240. Assuming you cast Shadow Dance at 90 again, you need to generate another 150 during the duration which just isn't feasible without an alarming amount of haste. 5 Ambushes and 1 Eviscerate costs 210, and would require 120 energy generated, a gap of 96 after factoring in Energetic Recovery regen, and still isn't exactly realistic since it would require 16+ e/s. You might be able to pull that off with some combination of two haste trinket procs, heroism, and 4 set proc.

I will refrain from stating which clearly superior, but seeing as Ambush only did a weighted 5.5k more than Eviscerate for me on Beth last week, I can't see it being all to viable if you acknowledge that it would have been damage at a rate of 183 d/e, and wasting CP's. Meanwhile Ambush in of itself was 850 d/e, and Eviscerate was 2.8k d/e. I will say that it could be viable to do 5 Ambushes with an Eviscerate in the middle of them, but that would have to be under a lot of haste and probably occur at most once per fight. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to generate the energy to actually get the sequence off.

The issue I ran into myself on Baleroc was dodges. Ambush can't be dodged, while eviscerate can. While it is possible to get 4 ambush and 2 evisc off during a dance, It may not be probable. I found myself losing 2,3, and sometimes even 4 globals during dance trying to eviscerate.

It depends on if you are reforged for sub or if you are going at it with combat reforging. Missing during a powerful CD sucks.
The other thing to keep in mind is, at least in my gear, the glyph of Shadow Dance is better than evisc, giving me 2 more seconds with possible ambushes.

Would it be worth it to attempt to use evisc again if one is dodged during a dance or continue to ambush to maximize that damage?

I did have an attempt with 4 dodged evisc last night on Bale. Obviously this sucked and was likely just statistical outlier.

Over 32 attempts I had a total of 25 dodge and 15 parry. This includes times when the tanks were dead so I was facing him after a wipe call.

It appears more likely that I just wasn't using sdance as properly as I should have (pooling enough before using it and maximizing gcd's during it.)

How much can I expect Crit to drop in value after the Ambush crit cap?

Also, how does Shadowcraft assume CD usage? I assume it bases ShD/Vanish usage on ShS/Premed (ie. delay ShD/Vanish use until ShS/Premed are both off CD), but I'm curious as to whether or not maximizing FW uptime (and perhaps getting an extra 'use' out of ShD from not delaying it) and simply using ShS/Premed when they are available would be better.

Hurricane increases in value when you are using a slower main hand weapon because it is a proc per minute based trinket. Thus, because the weapon attacks slower you are more likely to get a proc on hemo because the chance is higher and hemo is cheaper than backstab.

Your gear will control whether or not crit will drop in value. For example, I'm slightly over the ambush crit cap on my rogue, at 35.14% before HaT and shadowcraft still values it higher than everything other than haste by a significant margin. This is partially because I'm using 2pc t12, which is incredibly valuable for sub.

As far as CD useage, I assume Shadowcraft follows the rotation posted by Omni in the first post, that is to use your CD's on CD, and only use shadowstep / premed if they're up. In practice this will really only have an effect in the first shadowdance and maybe one other time in a fight. And because shadowstep increasing ambush is a fairly small increase in your dps, it's better to use CD's at appropriate times.


Crit can be a very powerful stat for a sub rogue, so you aren't losing much when you get a double crit proc with matrix restabilizer, obviously, however if you have a equal or higher ilvl prestors or hungerer those would be better choices. I obviously can't math it out for you (without knowing your gear) but in my gear the haste proc is worth about 2166 ep, while the crit proc would be worth 2038, and that coincidence is not going to be particularly common, so unless you have a trinket that is higher valued than essence right now (for example, you're using normal essence when you have a fluid death) you're probably better off sticking with Essence + Matrix.

Unless you have more crit hidden somewhere, that (I think you mean you have 40.14% crit as Sub?) is not above the crit cap. The crit cap for a fully talented Ambush is 100+4.8-60, which is 44.8% crit.

To answer the question though, crit should devalue to a rough portion of the DPS that it will still be an impact on. Since Ambush isn't a massive percentage of your DPS, it won't change much. In other words, if Ambush makes up 7% of your DPS, crit would have roughly 93% of it's value before the cap. Of course this is entirely dependent on the gear you have available to you, and doesn't take into consideration things like the Glyph of Backstab. It's just a general estimate.

EDIT: It's also worth noting that HAT is factored into the crit percentage on your character info window.